Overlocalization
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This is more of a general thing but J-Novel Club of late is losing it's roots as an organization that cares about it's fans with now increasing usage of over-localized language in more recently started projects. The translation quality has started to go down because of that over-localizing. Let's keep J-Novel Club as a high quality translation company and not that one that over-localizes (i.e. rewrites) because of inexperience.
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Moved from Prepub Corrections by
Rahul Balaggan
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@Rahul Balaggan Please don't move my comments around so much.
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Hello,
You made a comment in the discussion topic that was about a suggestion to the translation, so I moved it to the corrections topic.
You then made a general comment about J-Novel Club and their recent localizations, that was made in the corrections comment of a particular series, it did not belong so I moved it out.
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Moved from Support by Rahul Balaggan
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When I moved it I wanted to move it into suggestions and feedback, but hit Support by mistake, so I have now moved it into suggestions and feedback.
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@mlindner said in Overlocalization:
This is more of a general thing but J-Novel Club of late is losing it's roots as an organization that cares about it's fans with now increasing usage of over-localized language in more recently started projects. The translation quality has started to go down because of that over-localizing. Let's keep J-Novel Club as a high quality translation company and not that one that over-localizes (i.e. rewrites) because of inexperience.
I don’t currently understand what you mean by over localization, could you provide some specific information examples to clarify please?
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I'm going to save Rahul the effort and post my reply here...
@mlindner said in Now I'm a Demon Lord! - Corrections Topic:
@Gamen said in Now I'm a Demon Lord! - Corrections Topic:
@mlindner I literally have two shirts that say "Calm you shall keep and carry on you must", mixing it w/ Yoda. It's not unfamiliar to all Americans.
That said, in the WN at least it's 「ステイクール」を標語に行こう which only brings to mind Kirito and Eugeo...Ah ok that makes more sense. That was completely over-localized. There shouldn't be any reference to any western culture there.
@mlindner Personally I think it's up to the translator's discretion whether they replace a baffling or obscure native pop culture reference with one more relatable to the target audience, or leave it in because they're targeting an audience that appreciates authenticity over comprehension.
The ideal translation is the one the original author would have written if they were fluent in the language and culture of the target audience... but that's unobtainable, even for the author themself. So one's left with the next best ideal, respecting the original work and one's target audience and their preferences. Translation always involves judgement calls as to which audience to please and which to leave unsatisfied or even upset, and the important thing is consistency. ...and grammar, spelling, etc.
I fall into the audience that doesn't care because I'm so out of touch that the pop culture references and memes will go over my head regardless if they're localized or not. "Keep Calm and Carry On" is familiar to me, but I think as a meme it's from 10-15 years ago...Things like Seven Seas erasing Paul's rapist past in Mushoku Tensei, or turning an effeminate/crossdressing gay boy into a transgirl in "I Think I Turned My Childhood Friend Into a Girl" and thinking the LGBT audience they're targeting aren't going to notice it... those indicate a lack of respect for the audience and the story.
@Lily-Garden said in Overlocalization:
I don’t currently understand what you mean by over localization, could you provide some specific information examples to clarify please?
Another example might be VTuber; I didn't read it - I'm clearly not its target audience - but I did follow the forum thread, and since the translator was posting lists of which memes they replaced with which I assume that's another localization @mlindner would take issue with.
My talking sword has a point. And is also right.
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@Gamen said in Overlocalization:
I'm going to save Rahul the effort and post my reply here...
@mlindner said in Now I'm a Demon Lord! - Corrections Topic:
@Gamen said in Now I'm a Demon Lord! - Corrections Topic:
@mlindner I literally have two shirts that say "Calm you shall keep and carry on you must", mixing it w/ Yoda. It's not unfamiliar to all Americans.
That said, in the WN at least it's 「ステイクール」を標語に行こう which only brings to mind Kirito and Eugeo...Ah ok that makes more sense. That was completely over-localized. There shouldn't be any reference to any western culture there.
@mlindner Personally I think it's up to the translator's discretion whether they replace a baffling or obscure native pop culture reference with one more relatable to the target audience, or leave it in because they're targeting an audience that appreciates authenticity over comprehension.
The ideal translation is the one the original author would have written if they were fluent in the language and culture of the target audience... but that's unobtainable, even for the author themself. So one's left with the next best ideal, respecting the original work and one's target audience and their preferences. Translation always involves judgement calls as to which audience to please and which to leave unsatisfied or even upset, and the important thing is consistency. ...and grammar, spelling, etc.
I fall into the audience that doesn't care because I'm so out of touch that the pop culture references and memes will go over my head regardless if they're localized or not. "Keep Calm and Carry On" is familiar to me, but I think as a meme it's from 10-15 years ago...Things like Seven Seas erasing Paul's rapist past in Mushoku Tensei, or turning an effeminate/crossdressing gay boy into a transgirl in "I Think I Turned My Childhood Friend Into a Girl" and thinking the LGBT audience they're targeting aren't going to notice it... those indicate a lack of respect for the audience and the story.
There are a lot of levels to overlocalizaition and yes those case are more egregious. I have actually taken 2 years of Japanese in University so I have a beginners understanding of the language. The stuff that many fans harp over like replacing "onii-chan" I have almost zero issues with personally, especially in written works. (It matters more for subtitles on video as you're hearing the original Japanese directly.)
However when you start inserting cultural references that do not match with the culture of the character (i.e. the mentioned change inserts some kind of western influence into the character's psyche) then that's going too far. It matters a lot more for dialogue lines than explanatory prose. Dialogue lines should see almost no localization.
@Lily-Garden said in Overlocalization:
I don’t currently understand what you mean by over localization, could you provide some specific information examples to clarify please?
Another example might be VTuber; I didn't read it - I'm clearly not its target audience - but I did follow the forum thread, and since the translator was posting lists of which memes they replaced with which I assume that's another localization @mlindner would take issue with.
Thanks for the forewarning. That's absolutely and completely unacceptable so I'll be avoiding that series.
One final note:
The ideal translation is the one the original author would have written if they were fluent in the language and culture of the target audience
I completely disagree with this. Authors aren't writing to an audience. More than anything they're writing for themselves and thus their own culture and language heavily influence the writing. Carrying over that culture and language of the author (and explaining it if needed) to the reader is one of the jobs of a translator. It should NOT read as if it was originally written in English as viewed from a western cultural perspective.
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@mlindner said in Overlocalization:
I completely disagree with this. Authors aren't writing to an audience. More than anything they're writing for themselves and thus their own culture and language heavily influence the writing.
I don't entirely disagree with you - this is part of the reason why I say it's unobtainable - a theoretical author who was fluent in the target culture - depending on interpretation - either has the other culture as an influence, or only that culture as an influence, replacing their native culture.
For instance, names are a frequent cause for argument in the Bookworm threads. But if Miya Kazuki (and her husband, since she was also writing for him) was fluent in international English-speaking culture and writing Bookworm in English, I don't think she would've used German-inspired names; her stated reason for using German was to make it sound foreign and strange to Japanese ears, a purpose for which German is not suitable for in English.
What I do disagree with is the idea that there's an objectively right way to translate; even my own criteria are subjective.
@mlindner said in Overlocalization:
However when you start inserting cultural references that do not match with the culture of the character (i.e. the mentioned change inserts some kind of western influence into the character's psyche) then that's going too far. It matters a lot more for dialogue lines than explanatory prose. Dialogue lines should see almost no localization.
What options does a translator have?
Leave the references in: preserves the authenticity of the original work, but changes what were familiar cultural touchstones into baffling and obscure references.
Localize the references: preserves the relatability of the work at the cost of its authenticity (and ethnicity).
Remove the references: Avoids baffling the reader, but changes the character by removing their trait of using pop culture references.
Leave the references in and add translation notes or have the character explain the reference: Little less baffling, but still changes the intent of the references; the reader still doesn't relate to the character through them, nor is impressed by the character's knowledge of obscure references. Plus now the character is always "explaining the joke", or a work of light fiction now looks like an academic paper with all the footnotes.There are only wrong answers here. Translators really have to own their choices and readers have to accept that you can't get the native experience through a translation.
Well, slight qualification: I'm talking about translating to a mainstream target audience. Obviously I should think, things become much easier the narrower the audience... say, if you're only translating for an audience that's well-versed in the nuances of Japanese pop culture but merely can't read or understand Japanese, the "leave the references in" option is a no brainer. Conversely if you're translating for an audience that doesn't even know what sushi and karaoke are, completely localizing the references is the obvious choice if you want to maintain the tone of the work.
And I'm only on the consuming side; I know for Bookworm Quof has decent access to Miya Kazuki, plus she answers reader questions, releases background information, etc. so they can make informed decision on what to keep and what to localize. But I don't know how widespread that kind of access is for pop fiction like light novels and comics and anime. So for instance I have no confidence that the translators will get the metaphysics of Mahouka right so that everything clicks together neatly like it did in Japanese to the point of opening my mind up to new ideas... at least not unless the translators actually ask Tsutomu Sato for a primer on Mahouka's metaphysics instead of relying on the hints spread through the books.
Edit: Also, of course with the Mushoku Tensei and Classroom of the Elite bit it was apparently an editor making the changes without translator input, so... yeah. And being charitable the mistake they made was misjudging their audience, not disrespecting it. I mean, no one complains about the author's most self-indulgent tangents being cut from Wortenia, because what's left is distracting and irrelevant enough as it is.
In the end I'm in the "if you don't like it learn Japanese" camp.... though in my case what I didn't like was being reliant on fan translators' unpredictable free time and tendency to resort to MTL or Chinese TLs...
Edit2: Also, I don't mean to make light of the idea of being respectful of another culture and to avoid erasing evidence of it during translation... but I also don't feel that should be a major concern with low-budget, escapist fiction like isekai.
My talking sword has a point. And is also right.
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I think in a lot of cases it's prudent to localize at least some of the cultural references. I've seen fan TLs leave the original references intact, but then because it's something that only Japanese generally understand, they have to have entire paragraphs linking youtube videos and wikipedia to explain what the heck the reference means. It's also really hard when they do name play on words because the word play completely falls apart the moment you use any language other than Japanese.
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I agree with @Gamen. There is no way to give the exact experience a Japanese reader would get and there is no way to give everyone what they want within one translation as different people want different things.
Generally I trust the translators and editors to strike a reasonable balance within the translation. I think JNC normally does a great job of translation (and go the extra mile for harder to translate series like Bookworm) and are very responsive to discussing their decisions and considering suggestions as part of the pre-pub process.
I am willing to accept that they want to spread the stories to a more general audience which means not all of the Japanese language and culture based elements will be fully preserved/conveyed. In exchange I hope the translators will let people know via the forum or a premium edition endnote when there are interesting references or other cultural context which we might otherwise miss out on. Some translators/editors are really good at this in a proactive manner, and in other cases might only engage in response to a query or a WN reader comment.
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@Gamen said in Overlocalization:
What options does a translator have?
Leave the references in: preserves the authenticity of the original work, but changes what were familiar cultural touchstones into baffling and obscure references.
Localize the references: preserves the relatability of the work at the cost of its authenticity (and ethnicity).
Remove the references: Avoids baffling the reader, but changes the character by removing their trait of using pop culture references.
Leave the references in and add translation notes or have the character explain the reference: Little less baffling, but still changes the intent of the references; the reader still doesn't relate to the character through them, nor is impressed by the character's knowledge of obscure references. Plus now the character is always "explaining the joke", or a work of light fiction now looks like an academic paper with all the footnotes.Looking at VTuber Legend through the lens of these options...
- Option 1: Leave the references in. As the subject matter is VTuber culture, this is a legitimate option. The prospective audience is a bit narrower than most at first blush, as VTubers are a very online thing. That being said, memes still need translation even if they're very similar, as Kiryu Coco showed with her Reddit Shitpost Review series. Without something to explain the JP references, we'd be floundering like fish out of water, wondering how the hell that was supposed to be funny.
- Option 2: Localize the references. This is one of two options that's close to what the translator did, and in the case of VTuber Legend, I think it was a good idea. Even if they aren't exactly the same, memes do have general equivalents that you can reference. And given that the humor in this is fairly heavily meme-driven (at least, the parts that aren't VTuber spoofing and Hololive references), that's something that's probably best to at least attempt to localize.
- Option 3: Remove the references. That would absolutely not work in this context. The references are the source of the humor. Removing them would be on par with, say, Momosuzu Nene asking chat to be her friend, or Pikamee not using "dayo" and "sou sou sou", or Bender not being a bad influence.
- Option 4: Leave the references, but add in translator's notes explaining them. This runs counter to Rule #1 of humor: Don't. Explain. The joke. If you have to explain the joke, the joke has failed. And this series, remember, is a comedy series. Rule number one. Don't explain the joke.
This series went with what I'd call "Option 5", at least in the premium edition: Replace the references in the text with ones its English-speaking audience would get... but explain what the originals were in translator's notes after the Afterword.
My grasp on sanity remains absolute.
Oh, right, the poison, the poison for Kuzco, the poison chosen especially to kill Kuzco, Kuzco's poison. ...That poison?
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@TheGrimLich Yeah, and to be clear personally I'm in disagreement with myself. Because I also agree 100% w/
@mlindner said in Overlocalization:
Carrying over that culture and language of the author (and explaining it if needed) to the reader is one of the jobs of a translator. It should NOT read as if it was originally written in English as viewed from a western cultural perspective.
for the simple reason that to do otherwise is to misrepresent a real-world historical or contemporary culture.
And yet to not localize it is to sabotage its appeal and misrepresent the tone of the work. And to do neither and simply not license and translate it is to limit its exposure.
It's basically Lose-Lose-Lose. -
@TheGrimLich said in Overlocalization:
- Option 4: Leave the references, but add in translator's notes explaining them. This runs counter to Rule #1 of humor: Don't. Explain. The joke. If you have to explain the joke, the joke has failed. And this series, remember, is a comedy series. Rule number one. Don't explain the joke.
I disagree with the concept of "Don't explain the joke" in this context. The term comes from the perspective that if you have to explain your joke then it's not a good joke. It's an indirect warning to not write bad jokes. In this case explaining the joke is fine, because then the user can go look it up, figure out the context and then come back and re-read it and then get a good laugh out of it. You can also do what I'd call "partial localization" where the joke is kept when it calls out to cultural elements but it's slightly "pruned" to make it more clean in meaning to the viewer. Keep the joke funny but still need a partial understanding of the context rather than the full context.
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@TheGrimLich said in Overlocalization:
This series went with what I'd call "Option 5", at least in the premium edition: Replace the references in the text with ones its English-speaking audience would get... but explain what the originals were in translator's notes after the Afterword.
For the VTuber series I think that was the best option. Generally I am happy for translators to use their own judgement but I'd like to be told about any interesting elements which might have been lost in translation, either through posts in the forum (which VTuber did a good job of and which I see quite a lot of for Bookworm) or in TL notes at the end where justified (which is sometimes seen from JNC in the premium content for reference-heavy series such as VTuber and My Big Sister Lives in a Fantasy World)
