Again, slavery.

Folker46

"Isekai Meikyuu" is just another Japanese anime where the immorality of slavery is hand waved off, just so the MC can have a harem, there is no other purpose. To be honest, it makes me sick. At least in Rising of the Shield Hero, he had a good reason to buy a slave, even if after that he didn't care about the morality of it, it was just a way to solve a problem. I hope Crunchyroll doesn't show it.

WaterDweller

I don't really know what else to say to this than: it's a work of fiction. Just because someone enjoys a trope in a work of fiction doesn't mean they would enjoy the same thing happening in real life, nor does it mean they endorse it. Works of fiction depict heinous crimes like murder and war and the killing of civilians all the time, acts which are right up there with slavery in my book, yet people rarely complain. Because they're works of fiction. Most people have no issues keeping them separate from reality.

Let's talk about games. There are loads of games where the player is free to go on a killing spree, murdering innocent "people" (read: NPCs) by the hundreds, and a large number of players actually do end up trying that out at some point, just for the fun of it. Does that mean these players are depraved individuals? No. Because games are works of fiction. Back when I played Grand Theft Auto (the first one) as a kid, one of the first things I did was use cheat codes to give myself all the most powerful weapons and go around blowing up cars (with people in them). Does that necessarily make me a horrible person? No. Because GTA is a game, and thus a work of fiction.

I'll say it again. It's a work of fiction. The standards you apply to some crimes committed in works of fiction (killing sprees in games etc.) should be applied to all crimes in works of fiction. Singling out slavery as particularly depraved when there's so much stuff going on that's equally bad (in fiction, and in the real world today) seems a little off the mark to me.

And just so it's said. I don't condone slavery. Slavery was and is one of the worst consequences of the development of civilization, and the world is (or will be, as slavery still exists in some parts of the world) a far better place without it.

Nor do I watch whatever series "Isekai Meikyuu" is. I just don't think getting worked up about stuff depicted in works of fiction is a productive use of anyone's time. No one is forcing anyone to read or watch things they don't want to read or watch. (And when they are, it's usually propaganda (edit: or school curricula) that's forced down people's throats, not anime or light novels).

BartzBB

@WaterDweller
Although I very much agree with what you said the OP is right in that the series used slavery just to get the MC in a situation to have a harem.

They could've used other ways like the typical handsome guy gaining a bunch of girls or the justice for brain heroes saving random girls left and right while adding them to his harem.

Again I fully agree to what you said but the use of slavery specifically in the series was just so low level that I bet the author just couldn't come up with anything more unique to make the story standout among all the other harem LNs/WNs.

PS: Although I would still continue watching the series since it seems interesting enough. Hopefully JNC licenses the LN as well.

WaterDweller

@BartzBB I won't argue against that. Works of fiction may be works of fiction, but that says nothing about the quality of the writing. But better to complain about poor writing than to get caught up in the moral or ethical soundness of the tropes used. As long as murder and wars in fiction remain some of mankind's most common sources of entertainment, I find it difficult to make a sound argument against any other equally dubious tropes.

By which, I guess, I mean to say, I don't care what Crunchyroll fills their catalogue with. Let people read and watch whatever they want to read and watch, as long as no real people or animals were (intentionally) harmed in the making of it.

Folker46

I have no complaints about slavery in works of fiction as long as it has a good reason to exist but in some series it's just the author being lazy. There are examples of it being used to move the story along, like in Shield Hero or Summon a Demon Lord and others where slavery is just shrugged off and not worth the MCs time.
I guess it's a surprise to see OP characters accepting the unacceptable rather than doing anything about it. It sometimes looks like fighting evil just isn't worth their time, they'd rather chase girls, fight trash mobs, and make money.
Guardians of the Flame is an example of "otherworlders" who refuse to just let injustice slide. They have the will and the power, so they use that drive to fight the injustices they see, something very rare in anime.

Lex

I'm not particularly triggered when I see slavery in Japanese series, mostly because the slaves (at least the ones the protagonist buys) are usually treated more like lovers/friends/family than actual slaves and secondly because it's fiction. I don't even have a problem with the protagonist accepting slavery as part of the world, especially if he's not in a position of power with the means to revolutionize society.

strangeattractor

@Folker46

It sounds eye-rollingly bad and gratuitous.

Wellwisher

Tbh, when I started reading web novel I wasn't really impressed by it, filing it under a "usual fare" of wish-fullfillment blah-blah-blah, but reading the reactions to it (both positive and negative) got me to actually think about it... and the more I thought, the more fascinating I found it to be.

Sure, it is a wish-fullfillment fantasy... just not for the reader, but for the protagonist. He's a mentally ill, paranoidal person who ended up in similarly disfunctional world that he can take full advantage of. Which only reinforces his mental issues and catches him in a downward spiral.

Looking at it like this, magical slavery in this series is pretty much essential. MC wants to have closer interactions with people, and unconditional servitude is the only thing that pacifies his paranoia to enable it... to a certain degree.

That said, from what I've heard, anime is based on manga adaptation, and I don't know how well manga handled all of that.

Jon Mitchell

I’ve watched the first 2 episodes, without reading the LN or manga. It’s trash. Plot is thin, use of slavery as a writing trope is lazy/ hand waving. Yet, sometimes I find trash to be entertaining. This is not sophisticated, it’s bubblegum. I have greater objections to use of slavery (as a trope) in otherwise well written series. Because it is a crutch, an easy out for the author that avoids (in my opinion) other, more satisfying ways to develop a character or story (looking at you Campfire Cooking) . At the same time, even if the trope is used, these fictional works can sometimes be fun to watch/read.
Food for thought: isn’t the core of Pokémon slavery? Those critters are sentient, and being captured/developed solely to fight for the amusement of their masters. Where’s the moral outrage? (Also, I find the use of slavery in shield hero just as lazy/repugnant, Shield Hero is otherwise a series with better writing, so the use of slavery is worse, than in this bubblegum/mindless thin plot drek- that I still find to be an entertaining use of 22 minutes)

Zing

@Folker46 Isekai Meikyuu is a slice of life isekai with adult theme. The plot is basically none existent beside the guy levelling up, gearing up, cooking, having sex and earning money so he can get more "hired help".

I don't understand why you feel the need to be triggered.

@Wellwisher said in Again, slavery.:

That said, from what I've heard, anime is based on manga adaptation, and I don't know how well manga handled all of that.

The web/light novel is R-15, meanwhile manga is full on R-18, but with exceptional artwork.

Rahul Balaggan

Let's avoid calling other people out for their opinions, this is a discussion of an anime, keep the discussion on the anime.

If we can't the topic will be locked down.

Thank you

Zing

@Jon-Mitchell said in Again, slavery.:

Shield Hero is otherwise a series with better writing

I think the better writing ended at around volume 16, everything since then was just author padding out volume count by lazy recycling of the previous tropes.

Jon Mitchell

@Zing said in Again, slavery.:

@Jon-Mitchell said in Again, slavery.:

Shield Hero is otherwise a series with better writing

I think the better writing ended at around volume 16, everything since then was just author padding out volume count by lazy recycling of the previous tropes.

I didn't get that far - I read to about where the 2nd anime season ends and decided it was a good place to stop (didn't see much more compelling in the storytelling)

I was using Shield Hero as a contrast because it seems to have more plot/character development (in the anime) while still using some of the same themes (a 'harem' of slaves)...this anime is junk food. So far at least, no real plot (I understand the manga it has as source material is not plot heave either, r-18/softcore wish fulfillment fantasy, with more time spent on that, than the story/plot/character development. Junk food has its place, I like junk food every now and then.

the OP dislikes this anime's use of slavery because: reasons (and I have no issues with the validity of those reasons, evil is part of storytelling)
others defend it because other reasons (also valid)
I say it's trash, so I have zero expectations of it being anything more than trash, and sometimes I like trash
(and Shield Hero is slightly better trash)

Travis Butler

@WaterDweller said in Again, slavery.:

I don't really know what else to say to this than: it's a work of fiction. Just because someone enjoys a trope in a work of fiction doesn't mean they would enjoy the same thing happening in real life, nor does it mean they endorse it. Works of fiction depict heinous crimes like murder and war and the killing of civilians all the time, acts which are right up there with slavery in my book, yet people rarely complain. Because they're works of fiction. Most people have no issues keeping them separate from reality.

I would point out that we are rarely (if ever) asked to sympathize with heinous crimes in fiction. Dexter and Death Note are about the only examples of a murderer-as-protagonist I can think of off the top of my head.

Yet we are regularly expected to think 'oh, it's not that bad' with respect to slavery, at least if the protagonist does it. Heck, way too many LN's try to justify a system of slavery, sometimes even saying it's a good thing! (Off the top of my head, recent examples include Campfire Cooking, Great Cleric, and By the Grace of the Gods.)

There's just a bit of a difference in the way these things are treated, ne?

WaterDweller

@Travis-Butler said in Again, slavery.:

I would point out that we are rarely (if ever) asked to sympathize with heinous crimes in fiction.

I don't know about that. I'd say summarily executing ostensibly bad people without fair trial is a heinous crime in itself, yet you see this happen all the time in works of fiction. Yet it's so accepted that people don't even question it. You simply sympathise with it by default, because bad guys be bad, and good guys be good (things are rarely so clear-cut in real life).

An example of slavery that isn't questioned by most people (and when it is, it's usually in a facetious manner, even though it's actually quite horrifying) has already been mentioned: Pokémon.

Training animals to fight each other for human amusement is illegal in most developed nations, yet here we have an entire franchise based around the enslavement of innocent, sentient creatures who are forced to fight for their human slavers—a fantasy equivalent of dog fighting. But it's okay because the pokémon want to fight, and are loyal towards their human overlords. How is that any different from the way light novels portray human slavery as okay as long as the masters treat the slaves well and the slaves are loyal to their masters?

I would say slavery being okay because the slaves are "happy" and "treated well" is the exact same category of trope as bad people being afforded no human rights because they're "bad". The "it's okay, because..." class of trope. In real life neither is okay. In fiction, well, it's fiction. The whole purpose of fiction is to allow the reader to vicariously experience things that they can't experience in real life, whether for edifiction, entertainment or the fulfillment of suppressed desires.

jpwong

@Travis-Butler said in Again, slavery.:

Yet we are regularly expected to think 'oh, it's not that bad' with respect to slavery, at least if the protagonist does it. Heck, way too many LN's try to justify a system of slavery, sometimes even saying it's a good thing! (Off the top of my head, recent examples include Campfire Cooking, Great Cleric, and By the Grace of the Gods.)

I do want to point out that in stories where they're putting their "good thing" spin on slavery, they're typically comparing the legalized slavery with the illegal/underground/unregulated slave trading system that either exists elsewhere or alongside the legally approved system in the shadows.

While I largely dislike series where slavery is just used as a tool to expand the harem, I'll at least accept that it's the easiest way to write up something that reasonably seems to fit in a medieval fantasy RPG setting to deal with criminals and debitors. I mean you could go to the other end of the spectrum where these types of people are simply executed, though that typically would only help stories looking to get rid of characters rather than add them.

Rahul Balaggan

I guess this would be the time to make clear if this topic is about slavery in JP media in general (which is a topic that existed before and was locked down) or if this is about a specific anime.

If it is about an anime, let's bring it back to talking about the anime, if it is about the other, well we have been there, I don't believe anything new will be said that was not said before...

Folker46

@Rahul-Balaggan I'm moving on from this topic, people often get too excited about it and either don't see a problem or they hate it (kind of like lolicon content). Since I gave up on the anime in question, I have nothing more to say.

poisonedbite

You better tell the world. because some 85% (167/195) of all countries worldwide have some form of modern slavery. Hell, in half the world, it's not even criminalized.

Rahul Balaggan

In that case this topic has run its course, locked.