JNC Writing Support Group
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@LeeroyCGNA said in JNC Writing Support Group:
Do you guys usually know how your works are going to end when you write?
Yes. I once wrote a Pokemon fanfiction where I decided that Ash would die at the end of the story. That was the genesis of it and so everything I wrote was all about getting to the point where he would die. It actually surprisingly popular at the time, though it's completely forgotten about nowadays. Usually I have a beginning and ending roughly at the same time, and then the bulk of the story is working my way up to the end.
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@QuixoticHorizon said in JNC Writing Support Group:
There's something I was curious about with everyone. Until this contest it had been over a decade since I last wrote. Back then I would always write it linearly, from beginning to end. But with this contest I found that if I got stuck on something or lost momentum on one section, I could jump ahead and write something further down the line. I think at one point I was jumping between three or four different points in the story by doing this. So I'm just wondering, how does everyone else write? Do you just do it from beginning to end? Or do you skip ahead (or back) to write other parts when you feel like it?
I’m kind of in the middle. I tend to write linearly from beginning to the end and then go back and expand/fill out those bits in the middle that need more work.
I usually know where I am starting and where I want to get to in the end and kind of write it in straight line before having to work out to get around all the holes and bumps along the way.
My first draft often feels like a very, very long short story and it is in editing that it becomes a novel - if that makes sense.
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@jazzyjeoff said in JNC Writing Support Group:
I am thinking about interweaving my villain’s (‘Kid’) backstory into my current volume —taking him from sweet child to full villain in 7 or so distinct chapters that would appear throughout the volume. For example chapter 4 might be titled Kid: age 8, then I would have a few chapters of the main story, and then have chapter 7 being *Kid age 12, *and so on.
What do you guys think? Should it work? What things should I keep in mind when trying to do this?Hi there,
It is a good idea but you’ll have to be careful to determine whether these chapters are slice of life or narrative driven. I know it is common in isekai but I sometimes get annoyed with kids being adults for no reason other than the author needs them to be smarter/older than a kid in the situation. It can work if it is embedded into the DNA of the story (Tearmoon does it well for example by having Mia remember her future life).
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@jazzyjeoff said in JNC Writing Support Group:
I am thinking about interweaving my villain’s (‘Kid’) backstory into my current volume —taking him from sweet child to full villain in 7 or so distinct chapters that would appear throughout the volume. For example chapter 4 might be titled Kid: age 8, then I would have a few chapters of the main story, and then have chapter 7 being *Kid age 12, *and so on.
What do you guys think? Should it work? What things should I keep in mind when trying to do this?Personally, I usually don't like when the rhythm of the story is broken to introduce an unrelated story. One of the reasons why I stopped reading Game of Thrones. But, of course it all depends if that story is interesting or not. Knowing why the villain came to be is always nice and might make us empathize with them and give us a better character than the simple I am a bad person. Also, I think this moments might need to be properly timed. You can always write it and look after how it turn out. Maybe you may come to realize that some of them are quite on point and some would make more sense as an extra story in the end.
You could also add this stories by using the protagonist discovering these as they are being told by someone or by the villain themselves, but this doesn't always work as sometimes we want to have the villains thoughts more clearly explicit depending on the point of view you use to write your story. -
@GhostMechanic
Well, maybe there are a few people that like Game of Thrones, so I will just have to settle for that audience. :)I have already written a very rough draft of my villain’s backstory up until the beginning of the their point of no return. I am planning on at least completing their story as a rough draft, and then later see if I can interlace their story at times when it fits in well with the main story. Even if I end up dumping the backstory, it will be a good exercise, I suppose.
(A personal problem of mine is that my characters feel real to me, so I hate having bad things happen to characters I like—I sort of feel guilty about it—and my early villain is quite likable—but I think that the best villains are the ones that are a simple twist of fate from being the hero.)
BTW, is anyone watching Frieren anime? It does a great job of interlacing backstory with the main story. I was hoping to find a LN version to see how they do it—but I was surprised to find out it only existed as a manga before—maybe that is why it works so well as an anime—a manga must be great for story boarding an anime—so nothing gets lost in translation. -
@jazzyjeoff said in JNC Writing Support Group:
@GhostMechanic
Well, maybe there are a few people that like Game of Thrones, so I will just have to settle for that audience. :)I have already written a very rough draft of my villain’s backstory up until the beginning of the their point of no return. I am planning on at least completing their story as a rough draft, and then later see if I can interlace their story at times when it fits in well with the main story. Even if I end up dumping the backstory, it will be a good exercise, I suppose.
(A personal problem of mine is that my characters feel real to me, so I hate having bad things happen to characters I like—I sort of feel guilty about it—and my early villain is quite likable—but I think that the best villains are the ones that are a simple twist of fate from being the hero.)
BTW, is anyone watching Frieren anime? It does a great job of interlacing backstory with the main story. I was hoping to find a LN version to see how they do it—but I was surprised to find out it only existed as a manga before—maybe that is why it works so well as an anime—a manga must be great for story boarding an anime—so nothing gets lost in translation.I think the key message here is write the story you feel you need to write the way you to write it. Especially in the draft phase. You can fix almost anything in editing.
And I also like likeable villains or at least villains who aren’t just evil but who actually think they are doing the right thing. Or who acknowledge they are villains and own it.
I agree that Frieren is amazing but it work because the flashbacks are part of the inherent DNA of the show. The idea of retracing the journey builds the past into the narrative nicely rather than being a distraction.
On a side note, did we ever decide a way to share stories amongst each other? Sometimes a second pair of eyes is useful and a description in a forum loses the flavour of what you are doing.
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@Damon-Cavalchini
How much do you want to share? Passages? Chapters? Or entire works? How private do you want it to be?I am sure there is an app for that but I don’t know which one. Two things that come to mind are:
- google docs: If folks were really serious we could set up new anonymized google accounts just for this purpose and share on docs. We could maintain an invite list on a separate thread. Folks could invite and uninvite as they see fit. Folks could share as much or as little as they want.
- Wattpad—it is easy to publish and unpublish chapters and providing links is easy and it is as anonymous as you want it to be—but there is no keeping strangers out—but if you title your work with uninteresting names and no tags not many folks will look at it anyways.
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@jazzyjeoff said in JNC Writing Support Group:
@Damon-Cavalchini
How much do you want to share? Passages? Chapters? Or entire works? How private do you want it to be?I am sure there is an app for that but I don’t know which one. Two things that come to mind are:
- google docs: If folks were really serious we could set up new anonymized google accounts just for this purpose and share on docs. We could maintain an invite list on a separate thread. Folks could invite and uninvite as they see fit. Folks could share as much or as little as they want.
- Wattpad—it is easy to publish and unpublish chapters and providing links is easy and it is as anonymous as you want it to be—but there is no keeping strangers out—but if you title your work with uninteresting names and no tags not many folks will look at it anyways.
Hi there,
It wasn’t that I had something specific to share but that I thought the functionality could be really useful if someone is looking for feedback on an idea like the villain backstory example we were discussing.
However I can see it becoming useful after the first round of responses is released and when/if the competition opens again.
Especially for those people who don’t get feedback from the competition, it could be useful to be able to share work in a safe environment to get feedback from your peers.
I’d lean towards Google Docs as it slightly more private and can be locked to members of the group to avoid any questions around publishing or polluting the market.
I thought it might be better to set it up now rather than wait until the end of March so we can work out any kinks and also help people become familiar with it without having to possibly deal with external disappointments as well.
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@Damon-Cavalchini
There may be a better way—but here is the idea in more detail (of course, if folks have a better idea, please chime in).
Well, all folks would have to do is set up a google account, separate from their normal google account. A manager could start a thread with the contact list of folks that are up for providing input as the first post as a sort of sticky. They would be responsible for maintaining the list. Folks that want to be added as a reviewer/ participant would just add their google contact to the thread and the person maintaining the thread could add it to the top. (I strongly suggest not giving out your main google account contact). Folks could just send invites to look at their work, or a portion of it directly to whoever they want from the thread.
That said, folks interests, writing ability and writing styles may vary so much that it may not work. (for example, I am very much a beginner writer, I am prone to careless mistakes, and have no interest in reading things that I find depressing—that might drive some folks crazy!) But it might be fun to try—and really even if you could match up with one decent reviewer, it would be worth it. -
@jazzyjeoff Thanks. Lots of great ideas and the principle sounds good to me. I may have a look at some options (unless anyone else with far better skills than me wants to jump in). Being a dinosaur I haven’t really looked at how the forums work here.
You don’t need to be a professional editor to review or offer advice on a story. We all (I assume) like reading and having by a variety of reader viewpoints is really useful as they are the people we eventually hope to reach.
I fell into light novels because I was tired of reading heavy/depressing works. Light novels can tackle deep issues but they also don’t have a problem with being entertaining as well.
I guess at the end of the day I was thinking of ways to ensure this community continues to grow and support each other.
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I'm prone to vanishing at times due to poor health and frequent hospitalizations, so it's fine with me if anyone else wants to volunteer as a manager. Personally, I've been using Google docs to share my writing with beta readers, and that's been pretty convenient for everyone involved.
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@Alfaerin - I hope your health settles and we continue to see you here.
I can have a look at the forum rules and see what is needed to set something up on the weekend.
The only hassle I can see is being in a completely different time zone (I’m in Australia) than most people here.
Unless someone sees a major issue with this approach? It shouldn’t violate any rules as there won’t be any money involved and the stories won’t be broadly shared but held within a restricted group of people.
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@Damon-Cavalchini Fellow Aussie, G'day.
I won't be partaking in the sharing of novels, mainly because I don't particularly have enough time to reciprocate any reading. It would be unfair to expect others to read my work without doing the same.
On another note, the mad rush to complete my LN for this comp has left me burnt out and caused me to go on hiatus for my other novel. Hoping I'll scrape together some more motivation in the next coming weeks/months.
Perhaps the lack of motivation is tied to me coming to the end of my work contract which I know will not be extended (maternity contract). Anyway, I digress.
Good luck with the novel sharing, I think it's a good idea.
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@LeeroyCGNA said in JNC Writing Support Group:
@Damon-Cavalchini Fellow Aussie, G'day.
I won't be partaking in the sharing of novels, mainly because I don't particularly have enough time to reciprocate any reading. It would be unfair to expect others to read my work without doing the same.
On another note, the mad rush to complete my LN for this comp has left me burnt out and caused me to go on hiatus for my other novel. Hoping I'll scrape together some more motivation in the next coming weeks/months.
Perhaps the lack of motivation is tied to me coming to the end of my work contract which I know will not be extended (maternity contract). Anyway, I digress.
Good luck with the novel sharing, I think it's a good idea.
Hi there @LeeroyCGNA. I’m sorry to hear about work and the post-competition malaise. Look after yourself and jump in when you can.
Before this competition, I’d actually put writing aside for several years because it was too hard trying to balance work, writing and family life.
One thing I want to stress is that there is no expectation people will reciprocate. Some people like reading and feel confident reviewing while others do not.
If your motivation comes back - and this is entirely up to you with everything happening in life - and you want to put something up for a second pair of eyes then you should feel free.
I expect we will find some people who are great reviewers here while others may not feel comfortable. Ideally this will be an inclusive and supportive process and will settle into a rhythm before the first round announcements are out.
I plan to draft a basic set of ‘suggestions’ for how it can work on the weekend which hopefully everyone likes.
I’ll drop them here for comment before doing anything so anyone can also have their say.
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Hi there,
Here’s a basic suggestion for some guideline for people to share and review system/threads may works. These aren’t rules but a series of ideas to help encourage everyone participate in a friendly and supportive environment.
General Guideline Suggestions:
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Be nice. This doesn’t mean we have to gush wildly about every work but that all criticism should be constructive and about the work itself.
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Everyone can post a story, chapter, snippet, idea for feedback regardless of how new or experienced a writer they are.
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There is no expectation that people who submit things for consideration will also review. By the same token people can review without submitting something. Readers’ opinions are as important as writers’.
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You don't need to do a full, line-by-line review or anything. Be as detailed or short as you want. Just remember the original poster is looking for your thoughts and advice so just writing "Great story" isn't really helpful.
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If you don’t like the subject matter, type of story, etc then please don’t review or at least call that out so people can consider your comments in context. I know some people don’t like Isekai or romance or horror or whatever. So long as you are up-front about it if you leave a review then that’s okay.
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In terms of what can be submitted, let’s adopt the same guidelines as the J-Novel competition. That way we can be ready for if/when the next round opens. Works should be original and not previously published for money, etc. That’s not to say we don’t to see your 1,500-word R rated fantasy novel, Lord of the Things, but that this is outside the nature of this group.
How would it work?
We’ll set up a separate topic for where things for review can be submitted. The suggestion is that you add a post with the title of your piece for consideration and a Google Doc link (preferably not your main Google Account as @jazzyjeoff suggested). People would then reply to this initial post with their review/comments.
I did debate using the private chat function for reviews but that will prevent discussion about the story and the reviews themselves. By sharing both, we can all learn what people are commenting and can discuss common threads etc. And, by making any responses public, both the submitter and reviewer have to be prepared to own their responses.
Ideally I would have preferred to be able create threads within the topic but I can’t figure out how to do that.
How does that sound to everyone? Do we want to go ahead?
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Hi there,
As a completely different solution, it’s been pointed out that J-Novel Club actually already have a creative writing discord where we can swap materials and get feedback.
It has a small membership at the moment but we could also move across. This gets rid of the need to share Google Doc links and so on.
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@Damon-Cavalchini said in JNC Writing Support Group:
Hi there,
As a completely different solution, it’s been pointed out that J-Novel Club actually already have a creative writing discord where we can swap materials and get feedback.
It has a small membership at the moment but we could also move across. This gets rid of the need to share Google Doc links and so on.
The #creative-writing channel on the JNC discord does still tend to use google docs though for anything larger than two or three paragraphs, it's too hard to review in channel otherwise as it scrolls up with the chat.
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@Hylebos said in JNC Writing Support Group:
@Damon-Cavalchini said in JNC Writing Support Group:
Hi there,
As a completely different solution, it’s been pointed out that J-Novel Club actually already have a creative writing discord where we can swap materials and get feedback.
It has a small membership at the moment but we could also move across. This gets rid of the need to share Google Doc links and so on.
The #creative-writing channel on the JNC discord does still tend to use google docs though for anything larger than two or three paragraphs, it's too hard to review in channel otherwise as it scrolls up with the chat.
Thanks. I haven’t tried the creative writing group (I didn’t even know it existing until it was pointed out to me).
So - the plan would be to still go ahead here using the guidelines above?
The only rule we have have been asked to follow is to not publish anything that has been submitted to the competition. Sequel, follow-up, short stories in the same universe are all fair game but not your actual submissions.
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@Damon-Cavalchini Thank you for the kind words ^^ Not that it stopped me from winding up in the hospital yet again, but I do appreciate the thought.
Regarding the rules, I have some suggestions for things to add:
For rule number one, mention that writing a story is to take a part of yourself and put it into words. Sharing the result with others and opening yourself up to criticism is hard, and it's easy to take things personally. Call on reviewers to be tactful and keep criticism constructive, and remind writers to be polite in their responses. Explain that while criticism is hard to hear, it shouldn't be viewed negatively; it helps you grow as a writer when people tell you what needs improving. Also mention that criticism is subjective, and shouldn't necessarily always be acted on. If you're unsure whether to follow advice or not, suggest asking for more opinions first.
For rule number four, I suggest adding some specific questions for reviewers to consider while they read, like "who was your favorite character and why?" or "What part of the story was your least favorite, and why?" Also provide examples of what kinds of feedback are helpful and not helpful. Good feedback tells the writer specifically what things they did right, and what things could be improved. "I enjoyed the story" is not helpful feedback, but "The characters really sucked me in, and I enjoyed seeing what happened to them" is. Similarly, "the story was boring" is not helpful, but "the story has some issues with pacing; this part and that part drag on longer than they should" tells the writer what specifically they need to improve.
For rule number five, I would remove the request for people not to review genres they don't like, and simply request that they acknowledge this when giving feedback. People who don't normally read a particular genre can still have a valuable perspective. Besides that, trying out a new genre could wind up making the reviewer more interested in reading other works in the genre.
For rule number six, I agree that the group should primarily be focused on original content for future J-Novel contests. However, I would like to see an exception carved out for certain situations. Let's say you're considering entering the contest, but you want to improve as a writer before you start working on your entry. Asking for feedback on a previous work of yours, even if it doesn't meet the contest criteria, should be allowed. Also, if someone is writing say a short story as a practice exercise before starting their competition entry, that should also be allowed. Basically, the purpose of the group is to help writers improve for future J-Novel contests, so content exceptions can be made as long as it furthers that goal.
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Hi there. I’m sorry you wound up in hospital again. Take care of yourself.
Thanks for reading through and taking the time to respond. It was greatly appreciated.
For rules 1 and 4 - Sounds good although I am wondering whether we need a separate piece on putting together constructive feedback. What I was trying to avoid making the hurdle too high so that people still feel empowered to comment.
Your feedback on rule number 6 makes sense - happy to consider works like short stories etc that may not qualify for future rounds of the competition.
We don’t want to become another writing group but can consider other works. I know some people have written short stories in the worlds of their novels for example.
