JNC Group Writing Review Thread —The Two Minds of Cassandra
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-15fwp3wiRqjdP5Kuy6qZ-yR-MsOJASMHCsM4OTFwB4/edit
- Name of the work*
The Two Minds of Cassandra
- Approximate word count
47K words
- Short description of the work
Pretends to be a villainess story of return to youth for revenge but is more of a redemption through friendship—that said it is pretty dark in places and frou-frou in others.
- A list of questions you would like reviewers to answer (optional)
Also see judge’s feedback in the notes below.
Identify any dialogue or descriptions that seem cringey—help! (but be gentle! If you can’t be gentle, it’s okay be mean as long as you are helpful—but just help!). I could use help with proper naming of nobility and staff and world-building. Also, I tend not to go into detail on things that I find uninteresting—but I am sure that sometimes that hurts the story—so let me know if I am avoiding something important. Please let me know what doesn’t make sense, where additional chapters would be helpful, or anything else.
- Trigger warnings if your work deals with sensitive subject matter (optional)
Mild gore in the first chapter, threats to children, mentions of past life abuse, cursing
- Any additional notes or information you want to share (optional)
Judge’s feedback:
”The judge felt that the end of the volume did not provide a satisfying arc conclusion and wouldn't be enough to stand alone.”
This is intended to be a multi-volume work where many of the characters are ultimately redeemed. I think that I can deal with the major issue of the judge, as well as sort of the problem of losing my redemption theme by changing the title from “The Two Minds of Cassandra —Revenge of the Villainess” to “ The Two Minds of Cassandra —Revenge and Redemption” I would separate the volume into two books, “Book 1: Revenge” would be the first, which would include what I have already written and ends in a cliffhanger.
“Book 2: Redemption” would be the second inside the same volime, it would have a more uplifting conclusion—i have only begun writing it, and will not post for review until it has more meat on it—but I am definitely open to ideas for the direction of the second book.
Anyway, I need to polish the first book, while writing the second.
The use of magic will become more substantial in later volumes. If anyone is interested in the backstory of the priest or the villainous activities of the protagonist in her previous life, I can write something up. -
Referenced by
jazzyjeoff -
Referenced by jazzyjeoff
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Referenced by jazzyjeoff
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I'll probably take a look at this one next after I do one or two more on the Discord. With that being said, I plan to start from the beginning, but thinking out loud, how useful would you think it would be for me to go peek at the ending out of context without having read much of the rest of the piece, considering the judge feedback? If I run low on time I was considering doing that, but if you think that wouldn't be helpful I'll avoid doing that.
Working on reading it now.
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@Hylebos
I dont think that peeking at the ending will help. I know that I essentially have half a book. I need to write the other half.
It's the parts that I don't know that need work—but need work—that I would like help with.
Things like:
Is it okay that I just refer to the the Duke as the Duke through the story. Do I need to describe physical appearances of characters more—where should I put those descriptions. My fight scenes are basic, but I am happy with them—should I be happy with them? How can I make my world building more convincing? Is my introduction too silly or offensive? (most of the first chapter was pretty dark and I didn't want the reader to think the book was completely dark, so I added a light gag to soften the tone a little). Any ideas of interesting things that could happen with the characters i created—or ways to make them more real or interesting? And thanks! -
@jazzyjeoff Got it, I'll keep those points in mind, thanks for specific areas to look at.
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@Hylebos also, I think it is open for commenting—so you can comment in the forums or the document or both.
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So you had asked about the introduction and whether it was too silly or offensive, so I might as well put down some of my thoughts here since I finished the first chapter. I'll keep the shorter stuff in the Google Doc comments and maybe some of the bigger stuff here.
I thought the very initial opening scene at the gatehouse was perhaps just a little bit silly in parts, in particular the captain's exaggerated reaction to the priest. I understand your goal of wanting to create some contrast with the darker moments of the chapter, but I don't think you need to run too far in the opposite direction to achieve that effect. Just having relative normalcy at the gate and elsewhere is more than enough contrast, I think.
The guard being impatient about wanting to leave his shift seems like an adequate amount of normalcy to me, though the whining near the end got to be a tad much. The captain being surprised at how handsome the priest was seemed like an adequate amount of normalcy to me, but his mental reaction as well as him staring for so long got to be a tad much. It should just be a quick reaction and then the Priest asking "can I go?" and that's a smooth diversion to take the reader's mind partially off the darkness the lies ahead.
By the way, I liked the detail about the priest's ring, and I enjoyed the mystery of and eventual reveal of the purpose of the empty bags. However, I wouldn't have minded a little bit more information as to the priest's destination at this point in the text. The guards certainly knew, and the people surrounding the prison knew on sight, but I certainly didn't know. I don't think it hurts too much for a small comment along the lines of "Oh, you must be here for the witch," just so that the reader has an immediate goal to latch on to as a thin handrail to guide them deeper into the chapter, don't even need to go full details on that there's going to be an execution yet.
You had also asked about opportunities for world building, this opening scene is an opportunity to fill in some details. While I haven't read past Chapter 1, I'm assuming the setting is largely based in the city that Chapter 1 takes place in even after Cassandra goes to the past. You could mention its name in the narrative, maybe give the reader a type of idea of what sort of city it is now and then build on that idea later in the past. Only a sentence or two for now, you don't want to slow down the start too much, but you'll create some anchoring hooks that you can hang more information on later.
I also had an unresolved question of why they needed a priest from outside the city to perform this sort of funeral rite. Any questions you think your readers might have is an opportunity to interject some worldbuilding if the pacing allows for it. Perhaps he serves a particular god whose representation is necessary in a funeral setting. If so, you could talk about how his robes differ from a normal priest's robes, or perhaps he has a special holy symbol. Or maybe he's just from a special order from the standard church that practices in this region. The guard would call out attention to some small details, and then the answer would help bring the world to life.
Moving on, from a pacing standpoint, I feel as though we spent too much time inside that dungeon. You were pretty detailed between its smell, its temperature, the guards at the entrance, the rats, the lighting, the types of cells, the occupants but I don't think all of that was necessary in order to bring the scene to life. It's a gross, dank ass dungeon, I assume even people new to light novels should be familiar with the concept. I was more curious as to who the priest was meeting and sorta just wanted to jump right to that point rather than wading through the details :P
I'm not saying cut out all the details mind you, just think about which ones are essential and which ones the readers probably could fill in the blanks on their own. I didn't mind the banter with the guard, though the initial comment about it being cold (you already mentioned the temperature prior) and especially the comment about not touching her felt unnecessary. As was the exact sequence of holding the torch so the door could be opened, it brings the scene to life, but the payoff doesn't outweigh the time to depict it, when you've already done a good job of building up anticipation for the reveal of the main character.
Cassandra's description seemed like an adequate amount of detail to me, about the only low-hanging fruit you missed was some extra characterization you could have added about her eyes, whether it's "only her scornful ruby red eyes hinted", or "only her hollow ruby red eyes hinted", those sorts of extra twists of the knife really help to bring a character to life. I'd also be tempted to add a small bit about her attire just because that's extra characterization, but given how that paragraph is paced you'd need to do some rewriting to squeeze that in in a way that flows, and might not be worth it as I'm assuming everyone is just going to visualize her in a dirty prison smock thing, it's just a matter of giving them some breadcrumbs to latch onto.
With regards to Cassandra's little speech about regrets, it felt a little lacking to me, but that's perhaps because as a reader I don't have context for her inner darkness. I wonder if it would be more impactful if you threaded some of the actions in the subsequent paragraph into her speech so it's more dramatic as she emotes and gestures at different parts. That's where you want to invest your word and pacing budget to describe a scene in detail, as opposed to the nuances of opening a cell door :P
The priests final line before cutting to the execution was nice, as was the general surprise of her being kissed, but what I felt was missing was more of Cassandra's reaction to both this shocking event and her own execution. I wrote my own contest submission in first person and I haven't dwelled too much on matters of the third person, i.e. reading third person perspective novels for the purpose of reverse engineering how they work and such so this might be an area of feedback weakness for me, but it sorta felt as though you didn't treat Cassandra as a character the reader is meant to know the emotions of until she wakes up as a head, and I feel as though that's a loss. The narrative isn't bridged, between the two scenes, so to speak, we're missing the first half.
The execution scene was okay, though I feel as though the intent of the executioner asking the crowd about the five silvers wasn't conveyed in a flowing manner, it took me a reread to understand what was going on there. There were also some extra details here and there that slow down the pace to questionable benefits, such as the crowd hushing when the priest arrived only for that to get erased as soon as they start cheering for the executioner.
There was a lot going on in the scene where her head is brought back to life. I mean, he uses magic to bring her head to life, then realizes she needs to talk, so he uses more magic, and then she's in pain, so he uses more magic. Just feels like it could be simplified a bit, I mean it's perhaps an interesting detail that a head couldn't talk without further magic being used... or she could just think Wait! How can I talk without lungs? This magic is seriously creepy!
Again, I still plan to read more so I'm sure there's more answers ahead, but if you want to soften some of the darkness that might turn people away in this first chapter, I think giving them a clear justification for them to latch onto (if it exists, might not) so they sympathize with Cassandra would be useful. As it's written, it seems like she's a terrible person and her sister is a saint, but that's probably not the case. Even if it's just a simple thought of "I was framed and nothing I can say will change anyone's mind" or something that can get the reader on their side would help.
Also should the priest offer a name or alias for himself at this point in the story? I imagine it's possible Cassandra could encounter and recognize him in the past and learn his name then, but I would find it terribly annoying to have him exist as "that one, young priest" in my mental model of the characters of the story.
That might be a lot, but I wanted to note down my thoughts before continuing on. I do worry sometimes if my feedback would be better served by reading more instead of commenting as I go.
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@Hylebos Wow! Thanks so much for the input—I had been working on the comments that you added to the document, but I just now saw what you posted here. I will incorporate most of your suggestions over the next couple of days. Prior to this, most of my input has been proofreading. This is so much more helpful!
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@Hylebos It sort of pains me to take out the bit about him touching her—to me it is realistic—but the whole thing is a bit too dark considering where I want to go with the story—so, snip-snip it is gone.
While I play the story a bit straighter than Tearmoon empire—I am awed by its writer-translaror’s ability to so beautifully blend fluf, and darkness. It begins with a very effective execution scene but it's not so dispairingly dark. -
@Hylebos BTW, the junior maid, Nadine, becomes more important in the second book. I suppose, I should describe her more—if you have any idea of where and how much, it would be appreciated.
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@Hylebos said in JNC Group Writing Review Thread —The Two Minds of Cassandra:
Again, I still plan to read more so I'm sure there's more answers ahead, but if you want to soften some of the darkness that might turn people away in this first chapter, I think giving them a clear justification for them to latch onto (if it exists, might not) so they sympathize with Cassandra would be useful. As it's written, it seems like she's a terrible person and her sister is a saint, but that's probably not the case. Even if it's just a simple thought of "I was framed and nothing I can say will change anyone's mind" or something that can get the reader on their side would help.
Also should the priest offer a name or alias for himself at this point in the story? I imagine it's possible Cassandra could encounter and recognize him in the past and learn his name then, but I would find it terribly annoying to have him exist as "that one, young priest" in my mental model of the characters of the story.
Maybe after you read the next part, it would help. Much of the remainder of the book is in pseudo-first person (extensive use of thought—flow-of consciousness between the two souls in leu of narrative)—and I liked the idea of the reader not knowing Casandra’s thoughts until she goes back to her youth. Maybe, I can work in the lament:
"I have no need for a priest."
“Did you do it? Some claim you were innocent,”
“Innocent?” The villainess laughed, “I suppose I was innocent once, but Michlle killed that girl, the monster before you is all that remains.”
"At least pray for forgiveness for your sins."
"My sins are all she left me with. I will die with them."
"Your soul will be damned forever."
"My soul was damned a long time ago.”
The priest bowed his head in resignation, "but you must have some regrets."don't know if that softens her, or if it is too spoilery to be considered foreshadowing.
I worry about spoiling what’s to come by. The Priest gets a name at the end of chapter 4. -
Oh, and part of the reason for the extended scene with the reaminated head was to set boundaries on the priest who seems over-powered—he is knowledgable—but obviously has not worked this spell before and makes mistakes—he has magic but this has pushed it to its limits.
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I've read up to chapter 5, but it'll take me a while to type up all my thoughts. For now, here's my feedback on Chapter 1 & 2.
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@Alfaerin said in JNC Group Writing Review Thread —The Two Minds of Cassandra:
I've read up to chapter 5, but it'll take me a while to type up all my thoughts. For now, here's my feedback on Chapter 1 & 2.
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@jazzyjeoff said in JNC Group Writing Review Thread —The Two Minds of Cassandra:
Well, I did do a little cutting as the result of the feedback—I am guessing that at least half of it, you would approve of—it was some pretty dark stuff.
Oh, so the version I read was revised compared to the original? I thought the level of detail was good in the version I read, so maybe I do agree with Hylebos after all. But if you want to send the original my way, I'll let you know what I think about it.
The point of the kiss was to show that the villainess, who believes herself to be evil, is in the presence of a far greater evil. He is the story’s main villain. <snip for brevity>
If you want to keep the kiss, I would try to convey at least some of what you just told me here in that scene. As long as you clearly convey that it's non-consensual and the reader is supposed to find it off-putting, you should be okay. What some women object to is when this kind of behavior is normalized, and the MC being too quick to forgive and/or move on when it happens.
Ha! I am impressed! You were so quick to figure that one out! Yes, The “Villainess Turns the Hourglass” was my inspiration—I despised that story! I mean you have this totally OP main character who has the mind of an adult and is out to torture and destroy a child —that’s so messed up! She can reverse time and not once does she go to her sister and say, “hey sis, you are going down the wrong path, let me guide you to a better end for the both of us!” So gross!
It is messed up, and Aria definitely did things that made me uncomfortable. Iirc though, a lot of what she did was giving Mielle the rope to hang herself. Anyone who reads them will inevitably compare the two, but the dual souls and the fact that your Mielle expy can actually be redeemed does a lot to distinguish the two.
Oh, the punch has to stay! Especially since “don’t ever say bad things about my mother” was so much better than the punch!
Hmm, okay then. I would like to suggest that adult Cassandra test the ring in some other way first, but you have the limitation of once per day working against you. Since you want to keep it, maybe throw in a mention somewhere indicating why she didn't try something less risky to test the ring. Or maybe how she planned to deal with the fallout if the ring didn't work.
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@Alfaerin said in JNC Group Writing Review Thread —The Two Minds of Cassandra:
Oh, so the version I read was revised compared to the original? I thought the level of detail was good in the version I read, so maybe I do agree with Hylebos after all. But if you want to send the original my way, I'll let you know what I think about it.
Yeah, if I recall correctly the original felt like it had at least a paragraph or so more than what the current google doc has.
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@Alfaerin Mielle? Who’s that? There’s a Michelle here, but no Mielles!😂
When the contest was announced, I didn’t even have an idea to start with—and my reaction to The Villainess Turns the Hourglass was so extreme—I just ran with it—I figured that if I accomplished nothing else—I would cleanse my palate of that revenge porn!
I am guessing that “My Life as a Villainess” probably started in a similar way. But unlike that, and my favorite, “Tearmoon Empire”, I want to play Casandra mostly straight—which is tough—avoiding silliness without becoming too dark or making my reader think that this is revenge porn—believable redemption is my goal—I hope by making one of the souls being a 10y/o a naive quest for redeeming her previous life tormentor will be more believable. I also hope that by making her 10 folks won’t be thinking about romantic love so much—there is only the love between friends—at least through the volumes that are currently residing in my head! -
Referenced by jazzyjeoff
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I’m about midway through chapter 7 so far, and I am finding this story to be dark. To be fair, I have no clue whether this is meant to be a story that I would typically enjoy, so I’m not sure how much my reactions might help you, or how much you should read into my responses. But yeah, I’ve been working my way through the early chapters, and if I wasn’t already aware that the story will (eventually) become one of redemption and healing for the protagonist and the people around her, I’m not sure I’d have stuck with the story as long as I have. As it is, I reached that passage in Chapter 7 about how the staff had not only sabotaged Cassandra’s education, but her ability to socialize with peers (teaching her to draw the wrong kind of attention without her intent or understanding)… That, on top of everything that had come before, it was too much for me and I had to put the text down for a minute and take a break. Then I picked it up again and read about Dot’s circumstances during Cassandra’s first life, and I had to put it down again all over again.
I know I’m on the sensitive side, even when it comes to fictional stories. So to some extent, if you want to read my feedback above as “not only is Cassandra’s past awful, it’s believably awful”, since I’m reacting this hard to it: that’s not an unfair takeaway. I’m also not sure you actually need to change anything about your story in response to my comments, since I might not be the kind of reader this story is meant for. So whether or not you should actually consider softening anything is an open question, and I don’t think not doing so is an invalid choice.
But also… your new title, “revenge and redemption”. Yes, knowing that redemption is ahead for the story does help keep me willing to keep reading, to see it happen. Knowing that “revenge” presumably does also happen, and happens first, has me worried all over again. I’m worried that we haven’t actually seen the story at it’s darkest yet, and that whatever’s to come might be too dark for me to push through to get to the point where things are truly on an upward path. My point here being that even if you still want to highlight Cassandra’s ultimate redemption in your title to help keep readers like me around, maybe hinting at “revenge” undermines that goal a bit. I’m not quite sure I’d be as worried about things getting darker yet without that promise in the title.
In particular, the idea that the elder Cassandra might force or trick the younger Cassandra into place where she either commits or is witness to some truly heinous deeds is a very real concern to me. The bit at the end of Chapter 6, where the elder Cassandra briefly considers killing Michelle just prior to using the ring, sort of underscores that there is a very real chance things could take a turn in that direction. She didn’t this time, and she didn’t in part because she didn’t want to expose younger Cassandra to such a thing, which is a little heartening… but there’s very much implied “yet” to the whole thing. That’s a line she means to cross in time. Which is definitely good from a dramatic tension standpoint, but the end result is also that I’m left worrying about it, for better or worse.
It’s been hard enough when the elder puts down the younger as “weak”, or bullies her into a course of action, even if I have some empathy for where that might be coming from. (And again, kudos to you on keeping that believable, at least in the portions I’ve read so far.)
Of course, for all I know, this part in Chapter 7 might be the text at its darkest. But even if you know, hypothetically, that if I just hang in there for two more chapters, then it should be smooth sailing from that point forward… I as a reader don’t know that at this particular time.
(To be clear - I do intend to continue reading/reviewing your story. I’m just saying if I didn’t already have the additional perspective from what you have written in these forum posts, that would be much less likely. Even with that foreknowledge, I’m a little nervous about what might be waiting around the next corner.)
Anyway, more generally:
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Rereading some of the earlier posts in this thread, I think you’ve done well incorporating the prior feedback you’ve received so far. Not that I’ve read the earlier versions to compare it to, but for example: I found the priest’s kiss of Cassandra in the prison to be deeply creepy, but it was also clear that it was meant to be taken as creepy. So goal accomplished there. (FYI - my willingness to be “okay” with it and continue the story was predicated slightly on the assumption that his kissing her was a requirement for the magic he’d later use to reanimate her. Still an evil act, but one motivated by his overall evil goals. Then came his kissing the ring when they met up in the church in chapter 4, which kind of throws that into question. Is he doing creepy things because he’s a creep, or because he needs to in service to creepy magic? The distinction is small, but can be meaningful. You mention that there will be more magic as the story progresses; that might mean you have an opportunity to address this further one way or the other, if you wish to. Just a thought, anyway.)
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Also regarding Chapter 4, when he says “the Church can be very tolerant to those who know how to be discreet.” Is he making a reference to priests preying on children? Are you really sure you want to add that kind of characterization to this story? Maybe you have reasons for it, but if it’s some kind of throwaway line, you may want to consider rewriting it to remove the inference as taking your story just a step too far out of bounds. It’s not like you aren’t already dealing with some considerably uncomfortable subjects in your story already. And if was meant to be some kind of joke, it fell flat, because everything else in your story makes that too real of a possibility to be dismissed as a joke. (Actually, maybe it would be worth taking another look at this scene altogether, between my prior comment and this one. Totally up to you, but maybe give it some thought?)
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I like younger Cassandra as a character. I’m rooting for her and don’t want bad things to happen to her. (So very likely, goal accomplished there as well.) Just, FYI, if I had to point to what is most keeping me engaged and continuing on with your story so far, it’s to see what happens next for her, younger Cassandra, and how hopefully the elder’s presence will mean that the younger Cassandra will end up in a better place and with a better childhood than the elder had, rather than a worse one.
I hope something in the above is helpful to you. I also would understand entirely if it was not. And for all my concerns and hesitations, what you have so far does seem like a story worth reading that you should feel proud of (at least based on what I’ve read so far). I’m just less sure of whether it is a story for me or not. Which isn’t necessarily your problem. : )
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@Dawnaxis Thanks so much for reading! I know that I am really trying to thread the needle here. I want to keep my story and characters believable, while worrying that I might lose half my audience for being too dark and the other from being too fluffy —(yes, too fluffy—these are ten-year-old girls—and as they heal throughout the story they will take time to enjoy the world as ten-year-olds! ). Anyway, if you keep reading, please let me know the things you think might be too dark, or needlessly dark, and I will see what I can do.
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With regards to the kiss—it was intended to establish who the real villain in the book is—and by her recoiling in the presence of true evil—is to hint that Cassandra may not be quite the evil person that the world—or she—thinks she is.
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@jazzyjeoff That part came through clearly when I read it. That’s why I said you seemed to have accomplished your goal with that scene. What’s still less defined for me (at this moment, mid-chapter 7), is what his motives both were and are. And while his motives for any of his actions are currently a mystery to me, his motive for kissing Cassandra, there in that moment, is a contributing factor to just how creepy that kiss actually was, or how creepy some of his future behavior (e.g. Chapter 4) might come across as.
