People over at the J Novel Club are knock off Yakuza
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@Microdynames This is what I found on Japtem's site: http://japtem.com/removal-of-arifureta/ I don't see a full reproduction of any legal C&Ds, I see a person who received nothing posting what someone else claimed to have received. Not exactly waterproof.
@Jnovelaremonsters I'm not sure what your point is. The law currently states that the author has full control over translations of copyrighted work. I'm sorry you don't like this law.
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and we could forward a DMCA request on their behalf if necessary
So in other words "The author can use us as a messenger boy to forward their C&D if he wants to exercise his rights"? That's a fairly significant leap away from "We will ask the author to send you a C&D".
Until I see Raising the Dead receive a C&D for Smartphone from Fuyuhara Patora at the explicit instigation of Sam Pinansky, I don't think WN translators have much to worry about from J-Novel Club.
Edit: oh hello Japzone in the comments thinks @Jnovelaremonsters is a dunce.
They didn't make threats. They requested and Japtem complied. All they stated was that Japtem didn't have the author's perimission to host translations and that the Author could submit a DMCA, or request JNC to make one on their behalf, if the author became aware. That's normal legal practice.
If Japtem wanted to they could've asked for permission from the author, as other fan translations have done, and tried to get permission but they didn't probably because they didn't want to risk the author saying no. Now that an official translation of the LN is out it's even less likely that the author will say yes, and since Japtem is no longer translating the novel anyway there's no point sticking their neck out for it.
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@microdynames I mean, to me it just sounds like a canned legal message. I doubt someone was like "muhaha, this will scare them into compliance!!!," more like "OK, let's make a generic letter that touches on all the applicable legal aspects so that everyone is aware of their rights and risks."
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I rather support a business I know follows the correct procedures of licensing a title before straight up translating it like most if not all fan translation sites do. This ensures that the authors get a cut for THEIR work. Not only is does JNC have good quality translations they are also good on speed. I rather the good LN titles get licensed by people who will actually translate than those that take donations then go on break for months sometimes even over a year. Sorry but JNC is doing it right.
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@microdynames He failed? I am unable to find any posts about Raising the Dead's treatment so I flip it onto you. Post chatlogs he didnt from a reputable source.
As far as Larvyde goes, he complied, or at least at first. Cant get the first volume however, if I am not mistaken, he was posting translations of the light novel which is a separate thing that I am not defending.So, while unsubstantiated, my thoughts are that whoever was trolling around was all bark and no bite OR they failed to get anyone to move on it. Or maybe they decided its not worth accumulating more ire.
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I don't get this post at all. As far as I know most of the web novels that J-Novel club has are still continuing the fan translation. Even Arifureta had a very recent release of the after story. So how are J-Novels anywhere close to monsters?
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@jnovelaremonsters said in People over at the J Novel Club are knock off Yakuza:
He failed? I am unable to find any posts about Raising the Dead's treatment so I flip it onto you. Post chatlogs he didnt from a reputable source.
You want me to prove a negative? How exactly would I go about proving that the author never received a request from him, fly to Japan and hunt down Fuyuhara Patora to ask him in person? The evidence is that RtD haven't been C&Ded, therefore the author hasn't been asked for a C&D, because if he was it's likely he would get on that pretty quick because nobody likes their stuff being out of their control.
As far as Larvyde goes, he complied, or at least at first. Cant get the first volume however, if I am not mistaken, he was posting translations of the light novel which is a separate thing that I am not defending.
No, he was translating the web novel, and he is still translating the web novel. Note though when he didn't bother to comply for anything after volume 1 nobody appears to have come calling.
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@jnovelaremonsters said in People over at the J Novel Club are knock off Yakuza:
I am unable to find any posts about Raising the Dead's treatment so I flip it onto you. Post chatlogs he didnt from a reputable source.
That's... not really how this works. You're the one trying to convince other people that JNC is doing something bad. I'm not trying to defend anyone, I am just finding really easy holes to poke in your arguments. Micro too just wants actual proof, not "he said she said" anecdotes.
From all the stories being thrown around, the most likely explanation seems to be "JNC licensed some stuff, then sent a bunch of letters to various translators requesting they take stuff down. Some people did, some people didn't, some people blew this way out of proportion."
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@microdynames doesn't mean the interaction didnt happen. I am not trying to prove what legal action was or wasn't taken but the threats placed on them.
“We do not control the rights to the web novel and cannot demand that you remove your translations. However, just because the original work is posted for free online does NOT mean that the author has given permission for it to be reposted on other websites, or translated into other languages… and the author could, if they were alerted, request your translation be completely removed (and we could forward a DMCA request on their behalf if necessary).” - response to Japtem http://japtem.com/removal-of-arifureta/
@myskaros You are right, egregiously poor wording. What I meant that while there isn't any proof that they did, but there isnt proof that they didnt. And since Japtem actually made a post about it I am more inclined to believe him. And while I wish more people came forward, I understand why they dont.
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@jnovelaremonsters said in People over at the J Novel Club are knock off Yakuza:
“We do not control the rights to the web novel and cannot demand that you remove your translations. However, just because the original work is posted for free online does NOT mean that the author has given permission for it to be reposted on other websites, or translated into other languages… and the author could, if they were alerted, request your translation be completely removed (and we could forward a DMCA request on their behalf if necessary).” - Japtem http://japtem.com/removal-of-arifureta/
I'm going to repeat what I posted earlier.
and we could forward a DMCA request on their behalf if necessary
So in other words [what they said was] "The author can use us as a messenger boy to forward their C&D if he wants to exercise his rights"? That's a fairly significant leap away from "We will ask the author to send you a C&D".
Until I see Raising the Dead receive a C&D for Smartphone from Fuyuhara Patora at the explicit instigation of Sam Pinansky, I don't think WN translators have much to worry about from J-Novel Club.
[as] Japzone in the comments [of your link says:].
They didn't make threats. They requested and Japtem complied. All they stated was that Japtem didn't have the author's perimission to host translations and that the Author could submit a DMCA, or request JNC to make one on their behalf, if the author became aware. That's normal legal practice.
If Japtem wanted to they could've asked for permission from the author, as other fan translations have done, and tried to get permission but they didn't probably because they didn't want to risk the author saying no. Now that an official translation of the LN is out it's even less likely that the author will say yes, and since Japtem is no longer translating the novel anyway there's no point sticking their neck out for it.
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@jnovelaremonsters Understood about the poor wording.
Many unofficial translators are amateurs that just start doing it because they want to contribute to the community. They may not understand all the legal repercussions of their actions, and I think a letter stating what you quoted above is meant to make it clear where they stand from a legal perspective. I believe you are asserting that lots of groups probably received a similar notice, and Micro is saying that, they probably have, but many are still translating, so, in retrospect, that statement should not be taken as a threat.
To be completely honest, I seriously doubt the authors don't already know that their works are being translated into other languages, that's why I really believe that kind of letter is simply a notice and you're overreacting to the implication that it could be construed as a threat.
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@microdynames "Thats a pretty nice _____ you got there, would be a shame if something happened to it."
Read in between the lines. You are right, it is not a direct threat and if scrutinized in a literal sense then there is nothing threatening about that response. But it sounds really similar to the knock off gangster quote that I gave as an example.And you are again touching on another point I already made, these are individuals versus a company. To actually take it to court would take financial resources unobtainable by an individual to actually fight it. Example when H3H3 productions got hit by a copyright claim on their video and then got sued, they were almost made bankrupt trying to fight that case that they ultimately won. So the mere mention of legal action is enough to destroy people, whether or not they are in the right. That is how big corporations control the masses and apparently so does JNC
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@myskaros If it wasn't a threat then why bother contacting them at all then? They are putting pressure on individuals. I feel you are not giving those letters and the implications they give enough gravitas.
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@jnovelaremonsters Honestly, I'm not certain how you would like them to word the (quite pertinent, as it was Japtem who asked them in the first place if the LN license extends to the WN) information that "The author retains copyright to even a free WN" in such a manner that it can't be in any way construed as a veiled threat. Does any information that is inconvenient for the recipient become a threat in that context?
The only "reputable" information I can find that J-Novel Club's policy does not include actual DMCA C&D notices is this AMA.
DMCAs are in fact, quite a pain in the butt to do and I'm sure they wouldn't do them if it weren't for pressure from within the company. (...) J-Novel Club's policy is: we ask nicely. And if you refuse, we crush you with our merciless translation quality and speed
And I'll take that straight-up statement over attempting to infer malicious intent from blunt statements of fact, up until the day that Raising the Dead actually receives a C&D as an actual manifestation of the alleged threat.
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Now I kind of feel bad that I forgot that was a response to the translator specifically asking about LN vs. WN, not a cold-call notice. Thread could have ended a lot earlier :o
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Okay, I read more of this thread and it seems like you're upset about the "tone" of a letter that was sent out by JNC and that web novels and light novel are different pieces of work so web novels shouldn't be affected by the copyright of the light novel? This correct?
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RTD alone gets about 1.5 million visits each month on their website, they have several ads and take donations. They are directly making money off web novel author's work. How much of it are they sending to the original authors? How much does the author himself make off of the web novel? Nada. Only a select few of the web novel translation readers actually buy the original light novel to support the author.
On the other hand when a work is licensed, the authors get a considerable amount of money from it. I don't know if the author of Smartphone Isekai has made anything public about it, but some other authors I know have.
Tweet from Eiji Mikage the author of Hakomari:
It says that he received a considerable amount of money for the licensing. He has tweeted about it several times. And I am sure all the authors including the author of Smartphone Isekai get huge sums of money, they wouldn't otherwise when their work is licensed.
While most web novel translators deliver crappy machine translations which is a disgrace to the author's work, and even make profit off of it, companies like J-Novel Club offer a legit way of supporting the author. It is by no means wrong to worn those translators and call them out on their wrongful (and illegal) behaviour.
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I ... can't help but see this as 'I can no longer get what I want for free! This sucks, you guys suck!'
I'm fine with fan translating web novels. I'm fine with a donate button as well, as hey, the website costs money and if people want to donate, fine. I'm not fine with patreons, subscriptions, and more. This is just someone getting paid for another person's work. Yes, translating is work, but the novel is /not theirs to profit from/. And 'Hey, it's non-profit' isn't an excuse if the author doesn't want it done, either, I note. Non-profit doesn't get around copyright. I can't go and translate a copyrighted work like say the latest Witcher novel and say "Hey, I'm not charging money so it's fine!" No, it's not. And I bet you to hell I'd get contacted about it, too. :)
I haven't seen any signs of Sam 'pressuring' WN translators. It'd be pretty silly of him to do so, honestly, and he's pretty cognizant of things, as I believe he was part of a translation group in the past.
Now, onto LN. If someone is translating a LN and J-Novel Club picks it up? You're damn right they should stop and take it down. That's legality for you. Sometimes it sucks (I'm still sad that one or two things Yen Press picked up got dropped and I have to wait for them to catch up) but /at least LN are being translated officially and money is going to the original authors/. More of that that goes on? More likely that other works that are enjoyed will get official releases.
Honestly, the only negative is those who want to get the LN's for free.
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@jnovelaremonsters said in People over at the J Novel Club are knock off Yakuza:
tl;dr
Even assuming what you said is true word by word, your post boils down to "JNC is horrible for acquiring rights to content and moving to take down the flat-out illegal versions of this content".
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@anpan it sounds to me like his concern is that J-Novel Club is asking for the (voluntary) removal of a version of the story that J-Novel Club doesn't actually have the specific license to. As to whether this is Yakuza-like behavior, I'm not inclined to agree with him.
