How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry
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@zing said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
That is true, but here is a question that I've been struggling with for a while. If j-novel is publishing a light novel that I have absolutely zero interest in reading, do I still buy it to support j-novel or do i donate my money to a fan translation group that is translating a web novel I am currently reading.
Nah, the market is not a charity, you don't have to force yourself doing something you don't like, just put the money where it can benefit you. And a market based on that kind of charity behavior is not a stable market anyway. That's why the streaming and subscription-based model of JNC is so clever, you have a lot of chance to try new series while not having to commit seriously; and in this case you are supporting JNC happily instead of doing it grudgingly through a series you have no interest in.
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Fan translations of Web Novels, with the original author's permission, I see no issue with. But they should be getting permission, at least.
For actual published LNs, fan translations might help build a fan base, but how many people don't buy the official release because there is already a suitable, possibly further along fan translation for free? Both arguments are valid, so it comes down to numbers, something none of us probably have. Only the English localization companies could (and probably won't) speak to actual numbers. Although JNC has commented specifically on passing on certain titles due to significant fan translation, and that only hurts everyone.
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@shiny said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
My understanding is that in many jurisdictions you could sue someone for posting a Google translation of a web novel or other piece of creative content even the original work is made available for free online. This is because material can be published for free without granting permission to copy or publish derivative works.
Doesn't this essentially make Google's "translate a webpage" feature illegal as well? (Note that I'm not arguing or saying you're wrong or anything, I just think it's a really important question about what circumstances make translation of something which is freely available illegal.)
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@hosikuzu I used to work at a law firm that does some IP law, I kept my ears open when people talked shop but I’m not a lawyer so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.
Google Translate isn’t illegal, it is simply a tool by which people can machine translate websites with original light novel works. With that you are keeping the material in its original home just translating what’s there. What becomes illegal is taking the story out of its native habitat (the source site) and posting it elsewhere.
Unquestionably illegal and most likely considered piracy in the eyes of the law is then charging for a translation of currently in copy-write material. Whether you like it or not I think you’d be hard pressed to win if you were to actually go to courts with that.
You can argue morality all day long but from a legal perspective that is definitely not legal and likely viewed as piracy.
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@zing said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
I still buy it to support j-novel or do i donate my money to a fan translation group that is translating a web novel I am currently reading
you have to decide your personal policy
I support J novel with my membership (there's a separate thread about that)
a fan translation group soliciting donations is a shade of grey darker than my comfort zone, I'd find a way to support the author (if you feel that you want/need to)
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I'm not sure how to feel about fan translations. I discover a lot of series through them that I can then suggest to publishers like Jnovelclub or Seven seas. But I guess the fact that people are translating them for free does hurt the industry in some way. But sometimes companies pick up series because so many people like a certain series thats being fan translated. If I do see a company has put out a book I like I do try my best to support them in whatever way I can. I guess it depends on how you look at things cause there are a lot of things to factor in when it comes to the anime and light novel industry.
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@hosikuzu said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
@shiny said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
My understanding is that in many jurisdictions you could sue someone for posting a Google translation of a web novel or other piece of creative content even the original work is made available for free online. This is because material can be published for free without granting permission to copy or publish derivative works.
Doesn't this essentially make Google's "translate a webpage" feature illegal as well? (Note that I'm not arguing or saying you're wrong or anything, I just think it's a really important question about what circumstances make translation of something which is freely available illegal.)
As @the-green-death noted Google Translate is a tool and does not publish anything, so it would be the one who used that tool (and took the 'volitional act') that would be liable for any copyright infringement if they published the translated material for which they had no right to copy (copyright).
Just because someone is making something freely available does not mean they are granting others permission to make copies of that work. If anyone could copy web novels then we could expect to see loads of companies printing copies of these web novels without permission from the author, but that isn't happening. Unless authorised by the copyright holder simply copying and pasting a web novel onto a different website could be copyright infringement. If someone is not authorised to make copies of something, it stands to reason that they do not become authorised simply because they (or a machine) translated it into another language
You ask about "the circumstances make translation of something which is freely available illegal". It is important to distinguish between 'free' as in beer (gratis) and 'free' as in liberty (libre). A typical web novel is being given away without charge (gratis), but there are conditions on distribution and so it is not free in the libre sense. Specifically, users are not automatically granted the right to make copies, translations or derivative works of the web novel simply because they were allowed to view it on a website without paying a viewing fee. Similarly, just because J-Novel Club posts previews of many of their novels (and have periods where entire novels are temporarily made available for free) does not give people the right to post those previews on their website or to translate them into different languages.
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@zing said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
or do i donate my money to a fan translation group that is translating a web novel I am currently reading.
Donate to the author directly because he or she actually wrote the original material. Or buy one of their published books in Japanese. Then you're actually supporting the industry. Donating to a fan group does nothing except reward someone for breaking the law.
Whoever said nothing's impossible never tried slamming a revolving door.
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@myskaros Just to add - "buy one of their published books in Japanese" really only supports the author/publisher if you buy NEW books.
Used books are a big thing in Japan, but they don't support the author or publisher.
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@someoldguy I assumed everyone already knew that used anything doesn't support anyone but the secondhand industry, but yes, new only, or ebooks.
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@artistofmanga said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
But I guess the fact that people are translating them for free does hurt the industry in some way
I don't think that hobbyists are hurting the industry so much as (for profit) aggregate sites that post other peoples' work (without attribution oftentimes)
DRM wouldn't be as much of a thing if torrent sites weren't such a thing
I subscribe to a anime provider (2 actually) because I like anime (and it's the right thing to do, the way I get my money to the artists - so that they still make anime)
I subscribe to JNC, and buy other ebooks at retail for the same reason. I have read Fan translations at Baka Tsuki and a couple of other places - but find that there isn't that much that I have time for that isn't available via 'regular' channels (I may read a translation but later make sure to buy the ebook when it becomes available. Fan Translations don't get any of my $$$)
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@myskaros said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
Donating to a fan group does nothing except reward someone for breaking the law.
If you're reading fan translations then you're breaking the law too. It's wildly hypocritical to think that you're somehow above rewarding them for the work they did.
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@hosikuzu Copyright law does not state anywhere that you cannot read material that breaks copyright law, but that you cannot distribute translations without permission. Even still, there are degrees of law breaking/delinquent behavior, the "in for a penny, in for a pound" argument is very fallible. Even more still, let's say reading it did break a law, that in and of itself doesn't reward the illegal translators directly, giving them money does.
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I would say in a certain way could fan translation hurt the profit. But not as much as many think. Sure there are always people that try to get something without paying for them. And a fan translation would be one way to get this.
But...
And now I am getting to this point from my standpoint. For me it even upped the amount of books I buy. I certainly bought books where I read the fan translation which I would have else left on the shelves. Be it because the premises are not to my liking or simply not knowing about it. I make a point to buy the series I like. Sure I am also reading fan translations but those are only for things which are not available in english, german, spanish or dutch. Even if the fan translation is superb (yeah I look at Overlord and go) I still buy the physical releases of them although I have the digital fan translation. As said this is my standpoint.
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If they are translating as a hobby or as a way to increase their proficiency with the language I don't think it's all that bad. But fan translators hurt the industry because:
- Translators don't drop a series once it's licensed. Rather, there are some that start translating certain series AFTER they are licensed. (It makes no sense?)
- People pay for crappy MTL translations, often without even knowing about it. Such a thing is really stupid. Not to mention that Patreon has highly facilitated getting money/creating paywalls. Every fan TL with a Patreon account should be banned from it right away imo. You want to keep a donation button on your site? That's fine, but not locking stolen/copyrighted content behind a paywall and forcing people to pay, even more so if you're using MTL. (I won't say any names here but new ones keep popping up faster and faster.) I have even seen Patreon tiers above $100+/month. Seriously? In that case at least pay JNC $5/month and get some quality translations instead.
These above are the main 2 points I really hate about the whole fan tl scene. The whole thing has spiraled down to an easy way to get money by posting crappy MTLs, and it's not stopping anytime soon since people do give them money.
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I was following fan translation of "Ascendance of Bookworm", and has been following the thread on novelupdates.com forum before the licenced translation started.
I was rather disappointed that the release of official translation seems to be completely ignored there, and so far, I haven't seen anybody indicating that they bought the book and write about it in that forum. I was expecting people would be excited about it.
Is this an exception? Or in general, people hang out at novelupdates.com do not care for licensed translation? If that is the case, fan translation seem to be hurting the industry.
BTW, I was amused to see a user who claim to have read the whole 677 chapters using google translate. Can't imagine what kind of experience would that be.
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I don't think that fan translations really hurt the industry. If anything, I believe that it does more to help the industry if anything. Yeah, maybe some really bad fan translations might hurt a particular series, but as a whole I think that fan translations get the stories out there for people to read. It gets the unlicensed stories exposure which leads to requests for licensing and so forth. I look at it in the light of if it weren't for fan translations the light novel industry, and the manga industry as well, here may not be as big as it is. There are some stories that I'm still reading the fan translations on because they have yet to be licensed so until they get licensed or if they get licensed I can still enjoy the story. So yeah, I'd say that fan translations help more than hurt anything in this case.
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@hiroto I read the untranslated WN for Walking my Second Path in Life using Google Translate. I was about ready to gouge my eyes out. People actually pay for that crap?
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@paul-nebeling said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
@hiroto I read the untranslated WN for Walking my Second Path in Life using Google Translate. I was about ready to gouge my eyes out. People actually pay for that crap?
Yeah, sadly they do pay for that crap. And, as I said above, one of the groups putting out this crap has a Patreon tier with
$100+with several(?) subscribers to it.Fan TLs in the past may have helped the industry, but the current situation does anything but that.
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@paul-nebeling When I found v19-21 of Irregular at Magic High, I found myself mentally trying to PUT BACK IN the honorifics that were stripped out, just to make sense of it. If it hadn't been for the earlier translations, none of the relationships would have made sense.
