Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?
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To summarise and elaborate upon what has been said above: Some members of JNC read the original web novels from the websites the authors published them to (either in Japanese or via Google Translate). This is legal, whereas republishing those web novels without permission (including in a translated form) is not.
Just because something is available for free does not mean it is legal for it to be copied - that is the difference between something being released "for free" (gratis) and "with little or no restriction" (libre), i.e. free as in 'free beer' vs free as in 'free speech'. You are allowed to read on the official website without payment for as long as it is available, but not allowed to copy or make or share derivative works.
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@heimdal7 Since JNC does not license web novels at this time, can you provide a specific example where JNC requested a take down of a web novel fan translation?
Such a take down request would have to be made by someone who holds the rights to it, usually the web novel's author, possibly also the site that hosts the original web novel, as publisher.
Fan translations of light novels that JNC has licensed are a different beast. JNC has licensed the English translation, so they could make such a request, as can the original author AND the original Japanese publisher.
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To add to Shiny's point, those of us who like to compare changes between light novels and Web novels can only do so in the Web novel section. The discussion often being potential spoilers for the light novel, or distracting and detracting from the original topic.
Example being Seirei Gensouki where there are significant differences.Web novels can be given a cease and a desist notice because of the nature of copyright. J novel as a publisher are well within their rights to stop those who are infringing or has a potential to infringe on the licence they have paid for.
Though, let us not forget though, that from the ranks of amateur translators, a few have enjoyed success here.
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Something else to consider is that it's not uncommon these days (with anime and manga at least) for the Japanese rights holders to require or at least request that the English licensor be pro-active in tracking down and assisting in the take down of anything that would appear to be infringing on those rights.
Web novels that have also gotten released as light novels would seem to be a sightly unusual situation - do the Japanese holders of the LNs have any rights around the source WNs? - but I could still seeing them asking informally, if nothing else.
Though all that said I'm not sure I've seen J-Novel trying to take down fan translations of web novels, though that might also just be from my own lack of noticing it. Got any specific examples?
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@xdrfiredogx said in Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?:
do the Japanese holders of the LNs have any rights around the source WNs?
The Japanese publisher obtains the copyright for the WN when they license the story for serial publication.
Whoever said nothing's impossible never tried slamming a revolving door.
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@xdrfiredogx said in Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?:
Web novels that have also gotten released as light novels would seem to be a sightly unusual situation - do the Japanese holders of the LNs have any rights around the source WNs? - but I could still seeing them asking informally, if nothing else.
Some publisher even require the original WN to be taken down, naturally not to compete with the published book.
So, if there are both WN and LN available for certain novel, that is the right that author explicitly negotiated for the WN readers and it is not automatically given.
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@myskaros @hiroto I figured that was the case when the WN gets taken down with the release of the LN but had no idea what the case would be when both are still active, which seems to be a somewhat common situation. Thanks for clarifying.
So yeah, while a US Licensor may not have any rights specific to the WN it would be well within the Japanese rights holder to request that they pursue fan translations of them. Which is still not to say that's happened here, I'm only theorizing from sightly outdated knowledge of how it has worked for anime and manga in the past.
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@custodes said in Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?:
To add to Shiny's point, those of us who like to compare changes between light novels and Web novels can only do so in the Web novel section. The discussion often being potential spoilers for the light novel, or distracting and detracting from the original topic.
Example being Seirei Gensouki where there are significant differences.Web novels can be given a cease and a desist notice because of the nature of copyright. J novel as a publisher are well within their rights to stop those who are infringing or has a potential to infringe on the licence they have paid for.
Though, let us not forget though, that from the ranks of amateur translators, a few have enjoyed success here.
I recall reading a blurb somewhere on this forum about Seirei Gensouki... and how His identity is kept secret longer from the his sister and childhood friend. Huge differences... but it wouldn’t really matter I think. Property rights is a funny creature, if you don’t actively protect it you can loose it.
I’ve got a list of some 800 manga, and probably 200+ web novels et al that I read, maybe bit all of them actively but they grab me, and eventually I end up getting tired of their pace (the translators) and I read the official.
The only caveat there is say, Wortenia Senki, or Grace of the Gods... where Wortenia started and hasn’t advanced much on the fan translation much, the fan translation of the web novel is VERY PAINFUL to read... it actually encouraged me to push pause and wait for the official to catch up. Months later, I’m re-reading from the start because I know some things have changed. Do I have the web novel still bookmarked? Sure... but now that JNC is caught up... I’ll read here weekly instead of waiting for part releases that end where they started... “and so he opened his mouth to say...” join us next release when we get a brand new summary before he opens his mouth again.... I digress.
Now take Grace, I’m still I think a volume or two a way from making the switch. Again, my bookmark on novelupdates is still there, but knowing JNC is at the “wedding” chapter where he lends a hand, it’s rather close to where I left last, finally hitting pause garbage collection business and security arc... JNC is finally at the point where I can jump ship from one to the other... it’s a matter of waiting for a catch-up month OR being proactive and buying the volumes which I prefer to do...
My point is this, the web novel and fan translations can bring in more readers. It comes down to how much it HURTS the property rights and sales in the meantime.
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@thomask The thing is, many Japanese rightholders and content creators consider such unauthorized translation of content they created an infringement on their right and an insult against the product of work they produce, and thus they want to remove them even if it might end up bringing them more revenues, and even when there're no legal alternative available.
Based on such opinion, Japanese government have attempted invoking the condition of "imminent threat on life of its citizens", content creators in this case, to override the Japanese Constitution ban on information censorship, in order to restrict access to pirate sites. It was ultimately not enacted due to the site on the news at the time got shut down through diplomatic efforts, rendering such mesaure unnecessary, but it also indicate how seriously they view such unauthorized redistribution of their content.
Some websites like b*-* have long recorded copyright takedown request from Japanese rightholders on titles that aren't even licensed in English.
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@c933103 said in Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?:
@thomask The thing is, many Japanese rightholders and content creators consider such unauthorized translation of content they created an infringement on their right and an insult against the product of work they produce, and thus they want to remove them even if it might end up bringing them more revenues, and even when there're no legal alternative available.
Based on such opinion, Japanese government have attempted invoking the condition of "imminent threat on life of its citizens", content creators in this case, to override the Japanese Constitution ban on information censorship, in order to restrict access to pirate sites. It was ultimately not enacted due to the site on the news at the time got shut down through diplomatic efforts, rendering such mesaure unnecessary, but it also indicate how seriously they view such unauthorized redistribution of their content.
Some websites like b*-* have long recorded copyright takedown request from Japanese rightholders on titles that aren't even licensed in English.
I don’t disagree with any of the above. I’m just arguing my counter point. They have every right to protect the intellectual property they own. Both creators and publishers alike. Sure I might moan a bit after a take down happens, but I get on with life and replace it with something else while watching for a licensed version.
Maybe that’s part of the reason, when I find a good web novel, I marathon it’s hungrily in fear it’ll go poof before I “catch up”. It’s the nature of the beast.
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I'd have to dig for it - but there was another forum thread about fan translations and if they are a 'net good' or not...My opinion has evolved over the years. I currently feel that there is no legitimate/good reason to go to pirate/most fan translation sites. Presently (with the notable exception of Sol Press) many many many series are legally licensed/translated expeditiously/ readily available for purchase from a variety of outlets. THIS WAS NOT TRUE ten or even five years ago, and there was a cadre of translators that posted for 'the love of the art' , respected license holders' requests for take downs, and did not charge (nor allow advertising) on their sites - other than BT, I don't know of any that adhere to this ideal anymore.
a site is run by crooks if:- they put unlicensed works behind a paywall, patreon or otherwise
- they generate income from the posting of unlicensed content (i.e. ads)
- they don't respect take down requests
too often THE SAME folks/crooks who do the above think nothing of linking to or hosting bit-torrents of copywritten material or other blatant acts of intellectual property piracy- if you support them in one activity you are subsidizing the other.
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@jon-mitchell said in Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?:
I'd have to dig for it - but there was another forum thread about fan translations and if they are a 'net good' or not...
Are you thinking of this one, perchance? (I assume it's come up more than once, though.)
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@kevin-s said in Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?:
@jon-mitchell said in Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?:
I'd have to dig for it - but there was another forum thread about fan translations and if they are a 'net good' or not...
Are you thinking of this one, perchance? (I assume it's come up more than once, though.)
indeed - 2019/2020 about fan translations - I think the market has changed even since then
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hi, i am new here
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Luckily with the rapid advancement of AI driven real time translation the point of fan translations being legal or not will become moot. I had recently a look at how Google translates web novels and while there is still much to desire, the quality has improved hugely compared with the MTL of just a few years ago.
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@topgnu said in Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?:
Luckily with the rapid advancement of AI driven real time translation the point of fan translations being legal or not will become moot. I had recently a look at how Google translates web novels and while there is still much to desire, the quality has improved hugely compared with the MTL of just a few years ago.
I have much respect for the humans that interpret LN's/ web novels/ manga etc. There is an art and nuance to localizing, interpreting and making relevant to an English speaker a work originally in Japanese (or Mandarin, or Korean etc.) How would MTL handle 'cute cat language', or puns, or unique cultural references? How many different meanings are there for "baka' ('idiot' doesn't always fit in context) Also (relevant to the original question posed in the thread) the permission to allow a AI/ MTL to translate content freely posted indeed is indeed moot (google translate of a Japanese site not behind a paywall etc.) but FanFiction (derivative works, using protected setting or characters without author's permission) or Fan-Translations of protected works, are a different beast altogether. What shade of gray on the piracy spectrum is a topic for debate, and certainly just because the MTL is 'better than it once was' certainly doesn't make the debate moot.
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@Jon-Mitchell said in Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?:
How would MTL handle 'cute cat language', or puns, or unique cultural references? How many different meanings are there for "baka' ('idiot' doesn't always fit in context)
I may be unreasonably optimistic but I am pretty sure it is a matter of a short time - years not decades - before AI translators are taught to handle any and all nuances. Their availability may hit a temporary wall of computing costs but it appears quantum computing is just around the corner too.
I was not advocating for - or against - any form of humans translating or deriving from licensed or unlicensed, copyrighted or public domain work. My only point was that there will be no need for fan translations of freely available content on the web because automated tools will be able to translate with human like quality
"All libraries, everywhere, are connected by the bookworm holes in space created by the strong space-time distortions found around any large collection of books." - Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
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@topgnu said in Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?:
@Jon-Mitchell said in Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?:
How would MTL handle 'cute cat language', or puns, or unique cultural references? How many different meanings are there for "baka' ('idiot' doesn't always fit in context)
I may be unreasonably optimistic but I am pretty sure it is a matter of a short time - years not decades - before AI translators are taught to handle any and all nuances. Their availability may hit a temporary wall of computing costs but it appears quantum computing is just around the corner too.
I was not advocating for - or against - any form of humans translating or deriving from licensed or unlicensed, copyrighted or public domain work. My only point was that there will be no need for fan translations of freely available content on the web because automated tools will be able to translate with human like quality
Now I understand your point (I don't agree, interpreting is a creative activity, something that AI is not good at) but; perhaps, I am focusing on a distinction without a difference- AI IS good at translating - 'looking' at a vast database of previously translated works/ dictionary tools and algorithms and doing a passable translation between languages - word for word then correct grammar etc. (which a talented professional can than edit/proofread/ make better) and various LLMs I imagine are already being used for this task. LLMs / AI 'engines' need the databases of already translated works in order to figure out 'rules' of what 'looks correct' - and by the nature of what original works are, applying those rules and staying contemporary with trends within genres and culture is not something AI's do well - so if what you want is a translation of road signs, menus, technical journals, news etc. AI translation is pretty good- I use AI real time translation for subtitles on NHK all the time (and I suspect much of the subbed Anime on crunchyroll is AI generated as well) - but 'judgement', artistic choices, (a part of localization) and creativity (recreating a joke so that it 'lands' in English, and cat puns -nyan, or explaining/expanding text to make it culturally relevant, etc.) is beyond what AI's are (currently) created to do- there is no 'there' there to automate- it's a whole different type of task. (An AI is like a electric screwdriver- has replaceable bits- versatile- can do a lot, but cannot drive nails or make a decent cup of coffee.
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@topgnu said in Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?:
@Jon-Mitchell said in Honest question. Why does J novel club request web novel take downs while at the same time haveing a web novel discussion forum?:
How would MTL handle 'cute cat language', or puns, or unique cultural references? How many different meanings are there for "baka' ('idiot' doesn't always fit in context)
I may be unreasonably optimistic but I am pretty sure it is a matter of a short time - years not decades - before AI translators are taught to handle any and all nuances. Their availability may hit a temporary wall of computing costs but it appears quantum computing is just around the corner too.
I’m the exact opposite, having some decades of tech experience and seeing more than one AI method show high promise only to hit a wall. When a new approach is tried, there’s rapid progress- remember expert systems? - and it looks like the last 10-20% will fall shortly, the basic approach is proven, right? Only it turns out that after you’ve got the basic approach, you have to deal with the edge cases it doesn’t cover - and they multiply, not geometrically or even exponentially, but fractally.
...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.
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@Travis-Butler And on a similar note, Quantum Computing has been just around the corner for well over a decade at this point. The release of the first commercially available quantum computer was back in 2011. Admittedly, as I recall, it was more of a fixed function single algorithm device they were mostly calling a 'computer' because selling a 'thing for solving quantum annealing problems' wouldn't have been nearly as big a boost to their stock price as convincing non-technical investors to take a punt on them being about to topple Intel.
Over a decade later, the Quantum Computers of today are a lot faster... but I think we're still yet to see one suitable for general purpose computing. So no Quantum Web Servers, no Quantum Desktops, no Quantum Playstations... At least, not anytime soon. And for the next few years, ChatGPT will continue to make Jensen Huang very, very rich.
