Seven Seas in Trouble for Heavy alterations and censorship of light novels.
-
They did it for skeleton knight as well. "localized" certain scenes that resulted in drastically altering it.
-
@NoirMorter That's the first I heard of that one, what did they change?
-
@NoirMorter Can you please provide some examples so we can check it with japanese edition of LN?
-
@Rawon You have missed your calling. Perhaps a newspaper sub-editor?
-
@gineraay said in Seven Seas in Trouble for Heavy alterations and censorship of light novels.:
@Rawon You have missed your calling. Perhaps a newspaper sub-editor?
Nah, then it'd have to be "Seven Seas SLAMMED by FURIOUS fans over CENSORSHIP: HANDS OFF our stories!"
"You mean these people just go on the internet and tell lies?"
-
@Rawon Nah, only if the newspaper is a tabloid.
-
@NoirMorter said in Seven Seas in Trouble for Heavy alterations and censorship of light novels.:
They did it for skeleton knight as well. "localized" certain scenes that resulted in drastically altering it.
What was altered? It's one of the series I follow, if this is true, uuh... I assume these are alterations compared to the Japanese light novel releases, and not a matter of differences between the webnovel and light novel(the latter shuffled around quite a lot of the events in the webnovel).
-
[This post has been heavily edited to remove some editorializations and incorporate some insights from later in the thread. I was going to leave this post as-is, but I've learned that it's linked off r/lightnovels and it's possible that a lot of people are not going to read past this post.]
I noticed something odd when a piece I remembered from a translation of the WN for 私の推しは悪役令嬢 didn't show up in the Seven Seas translation of the LN (I'm In Love With the Villainess). It stuck in my head because it was a particularly powerful scene and I felt like the LN's characterization of Rei made her sound like she was unrepentant in her harassment, when in the WN, she felt guilty about it but was unable to stop herself.
Things change between WN -> LN all the time, so I didn't think anything of it at the time, but now that I know that Seven Seas had removed things from other novels, I went bought the GL Bunko version to compare. I found that that scene appears in full in the LN exactly as it did in the WN, and that the Seven Seas translation is the first publication not to include it.
Original:
「私たちにもっとこうして欲しい、とかそういうことはある？」
「んー、別にないかな。私はクレア様を毎日愛でられるだけで幸せだし」
「あなた、そういうことばっかり言っているから、私も身の危険を感じるんですのよ？」うん、その点は全面的に私が悪い。
言ってみれば、前世において同性愛者の偏見をまき散らしていた、同性愛を売りにする芸能人のような振る舞いを私自身がしているようなものである。でも――。
「茶化さないとやっていけないんですよねー」
ははは、と私は笑った。でも、その笑いには誰も呼応してくれなかった。Seven Seas:
“Is there any objectionable behavior I ought to change?” Lene asked.
“No, not really. I’m just happy to dote on Claire every day,” I said.
“It’s because you’re always saying those sorts of things that I worry!” Claire whined.
Perhaps that was true, and if I was overstepping boundaries,then that was my bad.But then again… “I just can’t live without poking fun at you,” I said, laughing. But I was laughing alone.
And then later in that same chapter, even more egregious, but cut for what I can only assume is the same reason:
Original:
「あはは」
「……」もう完全にいつも通りだ。さっきまでのシリアスな感じは霧散している。私がクレア様をいじり、クレア様がムキになり、レーネが宥めて、ミシャがそれを見守っている。本当にいつも通りだ。
そう、いつも通り。いつも通りに、私はちょっとだけ……本当にちょっとだけ辛い。
前世において、よく、同性愛者への偏見を無くそうとする識者が、テレビに出てくる同性愛を売りにした芸能人を批判することがあった。その主張はきっと正しくはあるのだろう。でも、私はこうも思う。真偽のほどは定かじゃ無いけど、茶化してでもいないとやってられないんじゃない人もいるんじゃないか、と。もちろん、そういう芸能人が偏見を拡大しているのは事実だ。出来れば偏見もなくなった方がいい。でも、現実にいる同性愛者の人でも、わざとそういった偏見が求めるような振る舞いを自らする人は一定数存在する。理由は人それぞれだろうが、中にはいると思うのだ。茶化さないと生きていくのが辛いっていう人たちが。人を好きになっても、応えて貰えることはほとんどなくて、何も言わなければ異性よりも近くにいられるけど、好きになった瞬間から誰よりも遠い。そんなことを何度も繰り返している内に、知らないうちに笑い飛ばすしかなくなってしまったような人たちがいるのではないだろうか。同性愛者の全員がそうだとは決して言わない。でも、少なくとも私はそうだった。「クレア様」
Seven Seas:
"Ha ha ha."
The serious talk had finally ended. I teased Claire, Claire got angry, Lene soothed her, and Misha watched it all happen with a resigned look. Things were back to normal.
Normal. And like always, I felt a bit…sad.
“Miss Claire?”Linking WN translations for licensed works is taboo, so I'll do my best to translate the passage in question myself. (For readers coming here from reddit and don't know me - I barely speak any Japanese. I may be proud of what I do know and eager to share, but this translation was the work of me muddling through with a dictionary and some basic knowledge of grammar. It's not authoritative, and is 100% guaranteed to contain mistranslations. Please don't quote me.)
“Is there any objectionable behavior I ought to change?” Lene asked.
“No, not really. I’m just happy to dote on Claire every day,” I said.
“It’s because you’re always saying those sorts of things that I worry!” Claire whined.
Yeah. This was absolutely my bad. In a manner of speaking, I was spreading homophobia myself. Just like those entertainers in my past life who exaggerated their homosexuality to sell a character.But then again…
“I guess I couldn't go on if I didn't joke like that, you know?” I said, laughing. But I was laughing alone.(@Gamon corrected me later in this thread - the line doesn't necessarily imply exaggerations and says nothing about characters. A better translation might be
Yeah. This was absolutely my bad. In a manner of speaking, I was spreading homophobia myself. What I was doing was the same as some entertainers from my past life who would make homosexuality their gimmick)Out of context, "I just can’t live without poking fun
at you" is a perfectly legitimate translation, because the object of 茶化す (to make fun of) is never specified - but the other segment provides the context."Ha ha ha."
"..."
The serious talk had finally ended. I teased Claire, Claire got angry, Lene soothed her, and Misha watched it all happen with a resigned look. Things were back to normal.
Normal. And like always, I felt a bit…sad.
In my past life, there were progressives who wanted to eliminate homophobia would criticize TV-entertainers who made their homosexuality into a gimmick.Those people were undoubtedly right.
But I think there was more to it.
Regardless of it was right or wrong, there were people who couldn't go on if they didn't make fun of it.Of course, it's a fact that those entertainers amplified prejudice.
And if possible, it'd be good if prejudice died out.
But the sad truth is that there were gay people who'd act in a way to invite prejudice on themselves like that.
I think each of them had their own reasons.
For some people, mockery was probably the only way they could deal with the pain.People we came to like would almost never reciprocate. If we didn't say anything to them, we could get closer to them than someone of the opposite sex, but the moment we started to like them, we'd be more distant than anyone
After repeating that over and over again, before we knew it, we'd become someone who could only laugh at it. People like that surely existed.
Not all gay people are like that.
But, at the very least, I was.“Miss Claire?”
This makes it absolutely clear that the person Rae is saying she can't go on without making fun of in the first excerpt is
herselfand her own life, though she never says that out loud. In the Seven Seas translation, Rae is just completely unrepentant in her sexual harassment and makes it sound like she's just doing it to get a rise out of Claire. And yeah, It's also a bit of an author tract, and the references to "entertainers who make homosexuality their gimmick" could plausibly be argued to not work for some western readers (I'm not aware of any western equivalent of ハードげイ), but I don't think that would be a good enough reason to remove it.(Edit: Removed some editorializations.)
-
@rsog412 This is horrible! I love this title and to think something so
crucialinformative of character's descision was removed, makes me incredibly sad. Ican no longer trusthad my faith shaken in Seven Seas LNs, which sucks cause I was planning on checking out a few titles -
@rsog412
I think this is a clear sign that this is an issue with Seven Seas' policy. They removed everything that may seem controversial. -
@rsog412 said in Seven Seas in Trouble for Heavy alterations and censorship of light novels.:
I'm not aware of any western equivalent of ハードげイ
IMO it's just not as exagerrated as japanese counterpart. In a way it's similar to how exagerated japanese acting in their live movies etc.
But I've seen a lot of examples of more moderate "exageration of gayness" (or you can say prejustice how tipical gay person acts), with positiveness over the edge, as if they were high on something. Like here, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWDTdXH6oF0 (not NSFW, but close - they show dildos) it's very toned down but still noticeable. -
Hi folks, Erica Friedman of Okazu and Yuricon here.
I wanted to comment on this thread because I'm seeing some ugly rhetoric and I don't think it's healthy for fans or fandom.
I did not read V1 or V2 of WataOshi in Japanese, so I honestly had no idea that anything was cut. But...I've read through these passages here a few times and while yes, I'm not happy they were cut, I do not see them to be the huge change some of you profess to see. It seems to me that they address how LGBTQ folks are shown in Japanese media. It does explain about Rae's OTT early behavior.
I don't have the vaguest clue why this stuff might have been cut, but please, for pity's sake - ascribing any changes to malicious intent is not all right. Of course you are welcome to not read anything they sell, but what good does that do? Then you don't get to enjoy the rest of these wonderful books. Tantrums are not the way adults handle problems. Hateful rhetoric leads to hateful behavior...we do not want some one taking their frustration to a KyoAni level. We cannot allow that.
Take moment and write Seven Seas a polite, firmly worded email expressing the problem. Ask them to restore deleted passages. If they get enough feedback, they might (probably will) change their position. There's no guarantee, but there's a much better chance than if you rant on a forum. When Viz made some decisions that in aggregate seemed very trans- and homophobic, I and a lot of folks wrote them and asked for the decisions to be fixed...and they were. They even fixed an issue that had hurt someone for decades, when their deadname had not been removed from a credit. THAT is how we make change, not harmful rhetoric. We know where that leads.
There is no place in Yuri fandom for hate of any kind.
So I'm asking you all, as another fan of ILV, don't speak of this as an attack on you or on fandom. It's a very unhealthy way to think of anything. We don't need to be angry. We can be disappointed and let Seven Seas know.
I have written them and asked for an on the record statement, which I will share on Okazu.
Thanks for reading and for caring about ILV! Let's get this fixed. ^_^
Cheers,
Erica
-
@OkazuYuri - Thanks for that. You're absolutely right and my reaction was a bit over the top. I hadn't intended to mean to imply that I or anyone else should do anything beyond not buying from them. Avoiding mistranslations is another reason for me to get better at my Japanese.
As for the specific passages - while I agree that they don't justify her sexual harassing Claire, they do change the way I see it. In the LN, Rae came across as completely insensitive and nasty, sympathetic only because Claire would bully her right back if she could. In the WN, Rei came across as someone who's trapped in a toxic coping pattern, whose pain is sympathetic even if her reaction to it isn't. It's possible that there were other omissions that contributed to that impression though, or maybe I just sympathized more with Claire on my second read.
I'll send Seven Seas a mail as you suggest once I've calmed down a bit.
-
@rsog412 Thank you very much! I am so relieved.
I agree completely that it gives insight into Rae's behavior - and between you and me and this forum I adore the bits where we get to hear from Rei (like her missing cars in V2, or her comment in V3 about wild olives.) ^_^ So I hope that they can put it back in. We just don't know what version of the original Seven Seas got. For all we know, GL Bunko decided to leave it out, or something. We can't see what we can't see.
I hope we can work with them and make this a better experience for all of us. ^_^
Cheers,
Erica
-
@OkazuYuri said in Seven Seas in Trouble for Heavy alterations and censorship of light novels.:
Hi folks, Erica Friedman of Okazu and Yuricon here.
Hi Erica.
I wanted to comment on this thread because I'm seeing some ugly rhetoric and I don't think it's healthy for fans or fandom.
Please don't attack other members with words "ugly rhetoric" and "healthy".
I did not read V1 or V2 of WataOshi in Japanese, so I honestly had no idea that anything was cut.
Understandable, that's why we have professional translators and editors so we can enjoy books written in foreign languages and do things we do best instead of learning japanese and whatever, ending up being jack-of-all-trades and master of none.
I'm not happy they were cut, I do noy see them to be the huge change some of you profess to see.
Being not crucial to the global plot is not an excuse for cutting things out.
I don't have the vaguest clue why this stuff might have been cut, but please, for pity's sake - ascribing any changes to malicious intent is not all right.
They may not have been malicious, but even so translator's/editor's feelings about aspects of a story is not an excuse to change things. I've seen plenty people who complain about something not having enough action while I enjoy exactly the opposite aspect of the story - good pacing, mood, character details and what people call "FEELS".
Here though for me it looks like the kind of editing that's done to not scare the potential audience. It smooths the rough edges making it more sociably acceptable. In this kind of story. Ironic.Of course you are welcome to not read anything they sell, but what good does that do? Then you don't get to enjoy the rest of these wonderful books.
But are they still the same books they were? At what degree of changing things do they become something else? Would you call the story the same if Clair was swapped for a guy and all reasons rewritten?
Tantrums are not the way adults handle problems.
Sadly, past ~10 years of my life proved that being vocal greatly improves your chances at solving things. People who doesn't cause troubles can be ignored after all, it's "don't fix things that aren't broken" in its worst form.
we do not want some one taking their frustration to a KyoAni level. We cannot allow that.
Now you are trying to manipulate opinions by exaggerating and drawing parallels to horrible things. I think there was a scientific name for such tactics but alas I don't remember it.
Take moment and write Seven Seas a polite, firmly worded email expressing the problem. Ask them to restore deleted passages.
Ofc it's worth a try, but most likely you'll be ignored. Because it's either a financial decision or the one made from the position of moral superiority where someone decided the part should have no place in the book because it's disgusting.
In the former case they knew what they did was wrong but still proceeded with edits - they already prioritized profits over faithfulness. But at least they can be reasoned with.
In the latter case though the edits were done by someone who thinks they did the right thing you'll be basically saying "your views are wrong". It can take a long time to change one's views so chances of them saying "Oh, my bad, you are right, shouldn't have removed that" aren't great. Your best hope in that case is someone in the top of company who'll rein in the translator/editor.
There is also another chance of it being a adaptation thing. Different parts of the world can view the same facts in different ways, so the part may have been removed because it was deemed to have different meaning if translated straight on. But that's too close to the realm of "lets replace onigiri with cheeseburgers".When Viz made some decisions that in aggregate seemed very trans- and homophobic, I and a lot of folks wrote them and asked for the decisions to be fixed...and they were.
Here, however, I bet it's a an opposite thing and they decided that part would be considered homophobic by some people, even it may not have been like that. So 7S decided it's better be safe than sorry.
There is no place in Yuri fandom for hate of any kind.
So I'm asking you all, as another fan of ILV, don't speak of this as an attack on you or on fandom.Please don't make it about yourself, it's about people at 7S being unprofessional while being paid to be the opposite.
I understand you are not happy about your favorite books being involved in some drama, but blame 7S for that, not consumers. -
@AlexUsman said in Seven Seas in Trouble for Heavy alterations and censorship of light novels.:
Please don't make it about yourself, it's about people at 7S being unprofessional while being paid to be the opposite.
I am as much a fan as anyone here, I therefore have as much a right as you to have an opinion, so request denied. ^_^
We, that is readers of this novel, do not have insight into anything behind the scenes. We don't know if Seven Seas deleted this stuff - or if GL Bunko, the Japanese publisher, sent a bowdlerized edition to them. Since we don't know anything about the circumstances or the intent, it's irrational to act as if we do.
What I do know for sure is that anger in cases like this is not productive. It is destructive. I've watched fandoms build anger up until they have little else. Yuri is a wonderful, welcoming and generally joyful fandom that I have had the pleasure of being one of the very first founders of. It means a lot to me, yes, personally, that we are a bastion of sanity in a world that rants angrily about everything else.
I think this is a cool passage and would like to see it restored. I will ask that it be. I hope most folks here will join me in being the one fandom that doesn't act as if a change in translation is a personal attack.
Have a great day.
Cheers,
Erica
-
It would be nice if a kindly worded letter to SS helped, but unfortunately history has shown you'll have a lot better chances to fix things by loudly going public in front of the paying customer base and shining bright light on their editorial decisions. Moral stances or not, if their revenue risks bleeding they're much more likely to correct things...
Also, shining light publicly on bad decisions isn't being angry or throwing a temper tantrum. If you are, you're doing it wrong...,
-
@OkazuYuri said in Seven Seas in Trouble for Heavy alterations and censorship of light novels.:
For all we know, GL Bunko decided to leave it out, or something. We can't see what we can't see.
This was my assumption at first. When I first read the Seven Seas version and noticed the omission, I figured that GL Bunko might have wanted to avoid publishing a bit that could be interpreted as disparaging the careers of existing celebrities and cut it as a result. I tucked it away in the back of my head as an "Oh, that's unfortunate" and moved on. For all I knew at the time, maybe the author decided to cut that part for personal reasons before publishing it. Even if not, the original publisher, working directly with the author, has the right to make that kind of editorial decision.
After seeing this topic, I remembered that ILV was a Seven Seas license, so I bought the GL Bunko version of the light novel to check. The excerpts I quoted are as they appear in that version, so the omission definitely first appeared in the Seven Seas edition.
@AlexUsman - I interpreted that post as trying to call me out for saying the omission "felt malicious," and her words were addressed generally because calling people out by name on a highly charged forum thread can be dangerous. She was absolutely right to do so because, reading my own words again, I was out of line when I said that. Seven Seas actions were definitely unprofessional, but calling them malicious and assigning motive to them was going too far.
Let's please not escalate any further, especially not against eachother.
-
@OkazuYuri well considering that the versions of their other censored novels were correct Occams Razor would say the most likely reason is they changed it deliberately again. There's giving a company benefit of the doubt and then there's just denying reason I fear...
As people dig deeper more and more changes in translations are coming to light. I think most people can draw a conclusion from that.
although I do agree writing to them is wise, posting on r/lightnovels gets it visible and seems to work, so that is a good option as well.
-
@rsog412 I think in the quoted line, @OkazuYuri meant more "GL Bunko decided to leave it out of the approved-for-translation version they sent to Seven Seas" -- not necessarily the most likely of situations, but if a company is worried about how their books could be perceived by a foreign audience that doesn't have the cultural context I can see them redacting the version they send to the translator. It's not likely, but in my opinion it's at least plausible.
