On localisation
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Having pondered the subject of translation vs localisation for a couple of days, I've felt tempted to make a thread on the forums, and hopefully start a discussion, or, at least, get people to share their own opinions on the subject. So I figure now is as good a time as any.
I figure I best start out with my own thoughts and opinions on the various aspects (that I'm aware of) going into localising Japanese fiction.
First of all, there's rearranging paragraph breaks and adding dialogue attribution, which barely count as localisation in my book. Rather than localisation, they're a(n in my opinion compulsory) way of making up for certain orthographic and linguistic features of the Japanese language that are different or absent in English.
Honorifics are a more interesting matter, in that English does have a variety of ways of expressing politeness levels, only, they're less codified, as they involve complex changes of vocabulary and idiom, rather than (for the most part) fairly straightforward changes in grammar and pronouns. Only in very few cases is it entirely impossible to convey equivalents of Japanese politeness levels in English (usually when there's explicit mention of honorifics in the Japanese original, like, for example, when two characters discuss how to address each other, which isn't really something that happens much in any English language context). Thus, my preference is for honorifics to be properly translated rather than just copied over wholesale. But to be honest, I'm so used to seeing untranslated honorifics in translated media that it doesn't even register any more, so I can't really say it's something I care too much about.
Then there's the translation of idioms, where I'd say substituting an English equivalent is for the most part uncontroversial, and standard practice, aside from when the literal meaning of the Japanese idiom is relevant to the plot (or to a character's thought process), which is rare in any case.
A point where English and Japanese prose tend to differ, is with things like laughter or growls or sound effects, where the Japanese text will often write out the sound in full / use onomatopoeia. I'd personally say that incorporating such "sound effects" into the narration when translating is a good practice, though I don't really mind all that much either way.
Next, there's adding references to western people, places, foods, businesses/brands, currencies etc. where there were none in the original text. This, I feel, is a much heavier form of localisation, which is where I think things often become a little controversial. Still, even such heavy-handed localisation is often justified, in that the Japanese original may contain numerous references that would be incomprehensible to the average (English-language) light novel reader without swapping in western equivalents, or at least smoothing them out in the cases where they're not relevant to the plot. (I'd personally prefer smoothing out the references to swapping them out wholesale with western ones. Though if footnotes were a more accepted practice in commercial translation, I'd prefer that approach.) But even so, I'd still be conservative with localising things that would be perfectly comprehensible to those with a passing knowledge of Japanese culture; i.e. most light novel readers.
(For example, there's no need to change yen into dollars/bucks/quid/whatever, even if they're used as a tool for comparison in an isekai setting. Most people into Japanese media are well aware of the simple heuristic of dividing yen by a hundred to get a rough equivalent in dollars. The same goes for changing SI (edit: or metric) units into imperial units, which I can honestly say is one of my least favourite forms of localisation, given that SI/metric units are (at least in theory) in widespread use in the US as well, even if imperial units are preferred by most people.)
Lastly, there's the truly heavy-handed forms of localisation, where characterisation, plot and/or tone are modified to suit the palates of the supposed audience. Needless to say, I don't agree with such an approach at all, and I don't think most fans of anime/manga/light novels do. Still, sometimes such changes happen by accident/through misunderstandings, and given the general lack of communication between translators and authors in the sphere of these particular media, it's no surprise that the author's intent isn't always conveyed correctly. There will always be a lot of room for interpretation, no matter how meticulously a text is put together. Mistakes are inevitable, and it's better to be forgiving. In my opinion.
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@WaterDweller said in On localisation:
Most people into Japanese media are well aware of the simple heuristic of dividing yen by a hundred to get a rough equivalent in dollars.
Don't tell anyone how bad the JPY is doing right now >.>
Whoever said nothing's impossible never tried slamming a revolving door.
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@WaterDweller said in On localisation:
Honorifics are a more interesting matter, in that English does have a variety of ways of expressing politeness levels, only, they're less codified, as they involve complex changes of vocabulary and idiom, rather than (for the most part) fairly straightforward changes in grammar and pronouns. Only in very few cases is it entirely impossible to convey equivalents of Japanese politeness levels in English (usually when there's explicit mention of honorifics in the Japanese original, like, for example, when two characters discuss how to address each other, which isn't really something that happens much in any English language context). Thus, my preference is for honorifics to be properly translated rather than just copied over wholesale. But to be honest, I'm so used to seeing untranslated honorifics in translated media that it doesn't even register any more, so I can't really say it's something I care too much about.
Before anyone starts discussing this point in particular, please be aware that there are entire threads on the forum arguing over inclusion or exclusion of honorifics.
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@WaterDweller I think I can get where you’re coming from, when you say that “The same goes for changing SI units into imperial units, which I can honestly say is one of my least favourite forms of localisation”.
Just for contrast, if it helps you to find it less objectionable when you come across it in the future, depending on the context of the story and the unit/measures role in it, I appreciate it when imperial units appear in the text.
There are times and cases where I don’t think it makes sense to do so, such as when the story says something is “about three meters away” or “approximately 15 meters high”. I can convert that to ~10 or ~50 feet in my head with relative ease and since those were only approximations to begin with, I’m not bothered enough about the fact that I may be rounding a few inches high. Likewise, even if the text is more definite about the distance (“Ichigo slowly unrolled the wrapping paper and carefully cut it into three meter segments for the banners our class would hang about the school for the upcoming festival”), again, I don’t mind if the english text leaves it in SI units, because “about 10 feet” gives me something I can readily picture in my head, and from context, the exact measurement doesn’t really seem significant to the story, just that precision is part of the current characterization of “Ichigo”.
Which brings me to another case where I would support leaving SI units intact: when not only are the characters Japanese, but the setting is also modern day Japan, and the units appear in spoken dialog, or appears in text that is clearly part of a character’s inner monologue or stream of conscious. In that case, yes, I would probably find it really jarring to see a character using Imperial units instead of SI units. I would have been reading that story with a mental attitude of “this is what I might see and overhear if I happened to be standing on a street corner in Japan (aside from the language barrier)”, so the inclusion of Imperial units would undermine that illusion. On the other hand, even when one or more central characters are Japanese, if the setting isn’t current-day Japan but a foreign country, a fantasy world, or the distant future, I don’t see this is as so much of an absolute. In that case, we’re more firmly in the realm of “the text we’re reading is being presented to us by an author who has already filtered and interpreted the setting into a form meant to be easy for the reader to comprehend”, the same convention that is generally used when natively-english written stories are set outside of modern-day USA/Canada/England/Australia etc.
But sort of along that line, I do think there are cases when it does make sense to use Imperial units, if it can be done without shattering the story’s milieu. Mainly when it’s not easy for the average intended english reader to intuit what the SI to Imperial conversion might be, and there is at least some suggestion that having an accurate grasp of the value involved might matter. For the purposes of being able to clearly visualize the contents of the story, if nothing else.
If the story mentions that a statue is 14 cm high, I don’t have an immediate idea of just how large that statue is, other than it’s probably not too large for a character to be able to lift bare handed. Likewise, if I’m told a character ran 18 km to summon help, I can guess that’s far enough to be out of breath on arrival, but I still don’t have a good idea of how impressed I should be that they managed to run that far - or how much time it likely took them to do it. Yes, I can grab a calculator or unit converter app and work out that we’re talking about approximately 5.5 inches or a little over 11 miles, but that breaks the flow of the story for me. If both the emergency that prompted that 18 km run and the act of returning with help is part of the climax of a story arc, that can be particularly unfortunate. And even when it’s appearing in a less-critical part of the story, the fact that the SI values weren’t values that were rounded to the nearest 5 or 10 implies that the author is being deliberately specific, and so it would really behoove me to pick up my calculator to get a clearer idea of what’s going on.
And, relatively speaking, distance is generally fairly easy to work around an unfamiliar unit - compared to most any other kind of measure. If a story mentions a temperature of 7 or of 30 degrees Celsius, all I know off the top of my head is that we talking temperatures that are higher than freezing and less than boiling, and that 7 degrees is less than room temperature while 30 degrees should be more. Maybe that’s all I really need to know, maybe not, depending on context. Weights and volumes, for me, wouldn’t be as challenging as temperature but would still be more challenging than distance.
Granted, while I am suggesting a “case-by-case” attitude is the best approach, I do feel compelled to mention that I aware it would be problematic to have the story presenting Imperial units in some cases while sticking with SI units in others, especially if both involve distance, or both involve temperature, etc. So I would say that translator and/or editor would need to read ahead and come up with an approach that works and is consistent for the entire story and do their best to stick to it. Which may be very difficult to do, especially for a series that’s still being published in Japan. I see it as a balancing act, without a given right answer for every situation.
In summary, converting currencies - sure. I’m also well versed in the “divide by 100” heuristic you mentioned to get enough of a good idea of relative value to proceed, especially since monetary values of various products can fluctuate so widely even within the same economy and currency. But when it comes to units of measure, I think it can be necessary to the ready enjoyment of the story, dependent on context. I do agree with your characterization that it “… is a much heavier form of localisation, which is where I think things often become a little controversial”. But while there may be some professions in the US which might give people a bit more exposure to and familiarity with SI units, I think there are also plenty of people who don’t have many opportunities to make it part of our day to day lives, myself included. And while I sometimes enjoy being challenged to improve myself by my leisure activities, potentially including “deepening my understanding of SI units through light novels and manga”, it isn’t always what I’m in the mood for either. If I pick up the next volume in a series to unwind after a hard day or a hard week, losing myself completely in the story is probably all I’m interested in.
So I’m not really arguing with your position about how significant it is to use Imperial units in terms of the degree of localization. I just hope that sharing my perspective makes it easier to find it a little less objectionable when you run across it. Maybe not; we all have our pet peeves. But just in case it helps.
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@Dawnaxis I actually agree. It's not a completely clear cut issue. And honestly, this is where I wish footnotes were more accepted and widespread in commercial translation. Keep the units the way they were in the original text, but add footnotes with unit conversions and explanations of references and so on. This would be particularly easy to do in digital releases, given that you don't have to worry about the footnotes taking up valuable page space (not that they would take up much space anyway).
If Terry Pratchett, one of the best selling fantasy authors of the western world, could add copius amounts of humorous footnotes to his novels, I don't see why literary translations can't include an explanatory footnote or two.
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@Dawnaxis You're American, right? While the UK isn't entirely SI, the use of Fahrenheit is something of a giveaway. The list of countries that primarily use degrees Fahrenheit is only 7 long - the United States, the Bahamas, the Cayman Islands, Liberia, Palau, the Federated States of Micronesia, and the Marshall Islands. According to google, anyway. Plus there's a few more where both Fahrenheit and Celsius are in common usage.
But for the rest of the imperial measures? I see meat sold in pounds or ounces occasionally (usually burgers or steaks), though most of the time I would operate in grams. Our road network is signposted in miles, and the speed limits are set in miles per hour, but when I'm not driving everything is in meters. And bodily measurements are the only reason I'm familiar with inches. And... that's about it. Everything else I do day-to-day is done in SI units.
@WaterDweller Sir Terry's footnotes were funny, that's how he got away with them so easily. They were part of the entertainment. Footnotes that just contain unit conversions or cultural notes wouldn't really work that way. And if you tried to make them entertaining, you'd probably end up diverging more from the intended flow of the work...
https://forums.j-novel.club/topic/6701/omnibus-builder
https://forums.j-novel.club/topic/5745/ascendance-of-a-bookworm-omnibus-editionsThe Primal Desires: Food, Sleep, Sex, StroZero, Hypnotism, and Awayuki Kokorone.
Item Diaria Apothecaria legi debent.
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@kuali said in On localisation:
Footnotes that just contain unit conversions or cultural notes wouldn't really work that way.
Even so, I would still prefer the footnote approach. It's not like a reader is forced to read the footnotes, after all. But then, 98% of the reading I do is in digital format, where footnotes take up no more space than the underlined asterisk next to the thing being footnoted, making them easy to ignore when I don't feel inclined to read them.
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@myskaros said in On localisation:
@WaterDweller said in On localisation:
Most people into Japanese media are well aware of the simple heuristic of dividing yen by a hundred to get a rough equivalent in dollars.
Don't tell anyone how bad the JPY is doing right now >.>
"bad" is in the eye of the beholder- great from the POV of a guy who will be visiting in December and hopes to see his dollars go far (when converted to JPY at a rate of 130:1 or so)
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@kuali said in On localisation:
And bodily measurements are the only reason I'm familiar with inches. And... that's about it. Everything else I do day-to-day is done in SI units.
how many 'stone' do you weigh?
that's neither SI nor Imperial (outside of the UK I believe)---but I'm being pedantic so feel free to ignore me
I read banned books
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@Jon-Mitchell I haven't the faintest clue. I know in kg... but don't really want to tell you. :(
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@Dawnaxis said in On localisation:
If the story mentions that a statue is 14 cm high
So slightly more than 5½ inches. (5.51)
the conversion is fixed at exactly 2.54 cm = 1 in (this is actually the current definition of an inch) -
@WaterDweller said in On localisation:
@kuali said in On localisation:
Footnotes that just contain unit conversions or cultural notes wouldn't really work that way.
Even so, I would still prefer the footnote approach. It's not like a reader is forced to read the footnotes, after all. But then, 98% of the reading I do is in digital format, where footnotes take up no more space than the underlined asterisk next to the thing being footnoted, making them easy to ignore when I don't feel inclined to read them.
I think we're overlooking an obvious advantage of the platform. we can have both and neither and something else too- if we are willing to accept a higher price because of the extra editing/translation work. Different versions of an ePUB with 'lite' or 'heavy' localizations, with or without footnotes/endnotes and/or glossaries etc.
I actually don't favor this position (because of the extra work to localize twice and I've been happy w/ JNC's editorial choices) but I would like to see glossaries and/or notations that could be turned on or off- then JNC staff can continue doing the 'lite' localizations they have been and folks less familiar with cultural references etc. can get up to speed
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About the above conversation about units, my stance is clear. If the Japanese text already has perfectly adequate international measurements/units as is, LEAVE them as is.
There's absolutely no reason to use some weird units over SI units already present in the source, excluding some culture/country/location-specific instances and certain tool crafts(like wood sizes). It just confuses the hell out of us who're not familiar with those weird measurements that only a small part of the world uses(for some odd reason)...
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@Korppi said in On localisation:
There's absolutely no reason to use some weird units over SI units already present in the source, excluding some culture/country/location-specific instances and certain tool crafts(like wood sizes). It just confuses the hell out of us who're not familiar with those weird measurements that only a small part of the world uses(for some odd reason)...
Not SI. Just metric.
Unless you like having only meters and no kilometers, centimeters, millimeters, light-years, etc.
Or Prefer all your temperatures in Kelvin.
Its actually quite telling that a significant portion of the scientific community doesn't fully stick to the actual "International Scientific" unit set.
Green's Theorem
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@piisfun said in On localisation:
Not SI. Just metric.
Unless you like having only meters and no kilometers, centimeters, millimeters, light-years, etc.
Or Prefer all your temperatures in Kelvin.
Metric IS the modern SI system. Perhaps best way to view it it is to consider SI a standardised metric system.
Also, kilometer, centimeter and millimeter are SI, to put it specifically, derived units of the SI base unit meter.
And to convert between Kelvin and Celsius, just add/subtract 275 (0 Kelvin=+275,15 Celsius).
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@Korppi said in On localisation:
@piisfun said in On localisation:
Not SI. Just metric.
Unless you like having only meters and no kilometers, centimeters, millimeters, light-years, etc.
Or Prefer all your temperatures in Kelvin.
Metric IS the modern SI system. Perhaps best way to view it it is to consider SI a standardised metric system.
Also, kilometer, centimeter and millimeter are SI, to put it specifically, derived units of the SI base unit meter.
And to convert between Kelvin and Celsius, just add/subtract 275 (0 Kelvin=+275,15 Celsius).
ok I'm gonna pick some nits
- common use = 'metric', science/engineering = "SI" many of the base units are the same, but in common usage there are differences. I know that the gram is a unit of mass not weight (weight is measured in newtons!) yet common use is to state a persons 'weight' or a quantity of ham at the grocery in grams or kilograms (or etto in Italy where 1 etto = 100gr)
- SI unit of temperature is Kelvin, common unit is Celsius, where zero Celsius = 273 Kelvin (not 275) - again I know I'm picking nits here
I'd say any story setting that is contemporary Japan should be using metric units as in use there, fantasy settings might have author defined or archaic systems (Leagues, Miles, Stone, Drams, Bushels, Pecks, Pints or whatever the author used, or judgment of the editor staff if cumbersome/ or to create an archaic 'flavour' - i.e. DungeonPoints etc.) SciFi settings might use SI units (if the author did originally) i.e. "under the plasma blast, the hull temperature quickly rose to 1000 degrees Kelvin..."
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@myskaros said in On localisation:
@WaterDweller said in On localisation:
Most people into Japanese media are well aware of the simple heuristic of dividing yen by a hundred to get a rough equivalent in dollars.
Don't tell anyone how bad the JPY is doing right now >.>
I recall when the dollar was really weak.
And I was doing a not small amount of importing of anime goods...
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@kuali Yes, I’m American. It was @WaterDweller saying “given that SI/metric units are (at least in theory) in widespread use in the US as well, even if imperial units are preferred by most people.)” that was my basis for thinking my perspective might be useful to share. I just wanted to add some nuance to the idea of what might or might not be familiar or easily understood by American readers, or how widespread really the usage of SI units are locally (which is “just barely, but not really at all unless you are a scientist or an engineer, and even then it’s not a given”).
Thank you for your breakdown of the UK side of things; I was under the impression that the UK had stopped using Imperial units altogether, so I found that enlightening.
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@Dawnaxis said in On localisation:
“just barely, but not really at all unless you are a scientist or an engineer, and even then it’s not a given”
Space: 1999
Or reasonable facsimile, the permanent loss of communications with the Mars Climate Orbiter due to not using the same units of measure in all relevant computer code and not having a conversion utility in place...Yeah, it's not a given.
