an opinion about honorific
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@myskaros Translation notes are quite a common thing though. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand people who don't like them and JNC's approach is excellent. However if you look at Seven Seas, Yen Press or the defunct Del Rey they provided explanations that are/were not difficult to understand nor required constant referencing (I'm saying this as someone who didn't speak Japanese at the time I read them).
Japanese as a language and Japanese culture is so different from the west that I believe there are times when it's appropriate to leave things like honorifics intact. It certainly applies more to some media than others and while it's easier to make a case for manga and anime I still believe there are times that it's appropriate for light novels as well.
With myself included I don't believe sweeping generalizations about any translated media are correct. Probably most novels it's not necessary to leave them intact, but for some if you include proper translation notes and explanations it enhances the experience and unless we have actual data (say reader surveys) it's impossible to truly say that one way or another is best.
Anyway, I hope that none of you who don't like leaving such things intact will take this the wrong way. I think nearly everyone in this thread has made excellent points and it's impossible to say any of us are truly correct. I completely understand the points of those who disagree with me and in the end I don't at all mind reading LNs or manga where honorifics and such are left out. All that matters is that there is a quality translation that truly conveys the original author's intent. I believe the JNC translators have done quite well at this regardless of how they choose to translate.
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@gonki I think translation notes are fine. They usually refer to one-off sentences or phrases that have double meaning or are hard to translate. With regards to Del Rey and honorifics, though, you're talking about a translation reference page (I actually went and checked my Negima manga to see how they handled it even before you replied haha :P), which is what I was referring to when I mentioned "a page or more of non-story exposition."
In addition, unless you're referring to a LN I haven't read, your examples of Seven Seas, Yen Press, and Del Rey refer to manga, no? The average number of words per volume of manga is drastically less than a LN, so there's much less occasion to leave an untranslated phrase.
I have a story that... I don't know what the right answer is, but thought it might be some fun food for thought. When I was still an otaku-in-training, I heard about this neat new anime called Bakemonogatari. Obsessed with the artwork and story, I went looking for anything NisiOisiN I could find and landed on Del Rey's release of Zaregoto: The Kubikiri Cycle. An aside, but wow, can't even translate the title? These aren't exactly common words, and they have perfectly good English translations too :/ and Vertical somehow felt justified in leaving it partially untranslated as well, what the heck lol.
This book, unlike Del Rey's manga, does not include an explanation of honorifics, and they left honorifics intact. However, my big beef is that the main character, the narrator, is never named, and only referred to as "Ii-chan." Since Del Rey didn't translate beyond the second book, I never learned if there was a reason why the protagonist didn't get a name; either way, at the time, I remember being excessively confused about what "ii-chan" meant - was it actually his name? a pet name? a reference to something I was supposed to understand? Considering the cast list at the beginning of the book simply listed him as "Me," I ended up having to search on the Internet to figure this out, and back then the answer was not exactly forthcoming.
This situation is definitely an anomaly, since it involves all of untranslated honorifics, an unnamed protagonist, a nickname for said protagonist, a book narrated by an unreliable narrator, and an author known for very quirky writing. Beyond all those is the fact that there simply is no name to translate or dress up in English, and cutting out -chan to call him "Ii" isn't exactly an improvement either.
I dunno ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I apologize if I seem overly confrontational about this issue, I actually don't really care either way personally, but I do think it is an interesting topic to debate, so I've just been enthusiastic with my attempts to persuade towards the "translate everything" camp.
Whoever said nothing's impossible never tried slamming a revolving door.
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I feel like the choice to drop honorifics, or other hard-to-translate words is always going to be situation specific, leaning towards removing them where possible. You are presenting the story in another (very different) language, leaving the book in some form of pidgin, even if it's one generally understood by fans, might not be the best way to get new readers. The goal is to reach as broad an audience with as little hurdles (like pages of translation notes) as possible. Because these companies need new readers to make more money. And we want them to make money, or we'll all have to learn Japanese :P.
There's always going to be situations when removing them severely impacts delivery. There's some words that, situationally, can be really challenging to localize too. But those situations should be few and far between for a skilled translator/editor.
In my experience, no one's going to agree on this topic, the fanaticism regarding it frequently reaches religious levels.
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@flarecde said in an opinion about honorific:
the fanaticism regarding it frequently reaches religious levels.
Haha... so true.
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@myskaros I think playing devil's advocate (so to say) is fine. :) I also agree it's an interesting topic to debate and one that no camps will ever agree on. The above comment about fanaticism is too true. And yes, I was referring to manga. Probably my beef as it were to leaving out honorifics is that there are a lot of translators that don't bother to find another way to convey the nuance. I don't mean this as a criticism of JNC (since I feel they do a good job) or translators that choose to leave them in. In my view it's a stylistic choice and also a matter of how the translator thinks it best to convey the author's original meaning.
Just as an example of something I absolutely hate is Funimation's choice to translate "Onee-sama" as "Sissy" in Railgun and Index. I can't overstate how much that drives me nuts. There had to be a better way to translate that. And apologies for that random comment but it drives me nuts and I needed an outlet to say it!
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@imilyaz think the manga version of Negima did that (probably others as well). They had an appendix explaining the honorifics, some cultural things and the food if I remember correctly.
As far my personal opinion on honorifics, I would say I WAS for them. But after reading some these post (at least in the realm of light novels) they seem to be a minor thing. The honorific issue wouldn't have stopped me from buying a light novel unless it was iconic like Onii-sama in Mahouka. But that just in light novels and perhaps manga. In the case of anime I prefer honorific 100 percent to the point that I like fan subs over the legit versions any day. I used to think of it as a part of their culture and removing it was like removing a piece of that culture since it seems like they place more emphasis on social hierarchy than westerners would. Sort of like the difference between formal and casual language, or the meaning of using someone's first name. It seems lost if not explained properly. I also don't mind the exposure to the culture they have over there that it may bring. Then again as I think about it, my preference for not "westernizing" it may come from watching anime from the early 90s. I remember the tokyo tower being called the eiffel tower in sailor moon and rice balls being called donuts in pokemon. I know those are extreme cases but you give an inch they take a mile.
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I personally don't really mind removing them, most of the time. Though sometimes they can be useful.
Just for the love of god. No Mr. Welf, or Sissie.
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@corp20 all Del Rey manga had a section at the front explaining common honourifics. If they'd only added "Onee-chan" to the list for Negima it would have saved them a lot of pain later...
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@dtta said in an opinion about honorific:
I personally don't really mind removing them, most of the time. Though sometimes they can be useful.
Just for the love of god. No Mr. Welf, or Sissie.
Mr. Welf doesn't bother me. Sissie was bad though. That's one of the ones I can't think of a good replacement for.
~ flarecde
Reality is nothing; Perception is everything. -
Mr. doesn't bother mean either until it is highschool kids calling each other Ms/Mr.
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@flarecde Sissie/Sissy is the worst. I know it's hard to translate the way siblings are referred to in Japanese but... ugh.
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It does me, 'cause Welf isn't his family name and you don't call people Mr. Dave or Mr. Bill. The proper way would be Mr. Crozzo, which would be odd too for other reasons. Really, it'd have been better to drop the -san entirely and toss on a "sir" once in a blue moon, maybe, or something.
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@dtta Uh, I know lots of people who unironically address friends or colleagues as Mr./Ms. first name >_>
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Seriously. They go and call someone Mr. Dave or Mrs. Jill and not in a joking way? :) I'd love to see that.
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@dtta said in an opinion about honorific:
Seriously. They go and call someone Mr. Dave or Mrs. Jill and not in a joking way? :) I'd love to see that.
I've done it / had it done with coworkers. My last name is a mouthful, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
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@dtta In actuality, that would be a proper translation using a person's first name. Uncommon in this country, but not unheard of. Other honorifics would be much harder to translate coherently. English just isn't set up the way that Japanese is. What word would you use for kun?
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I wouldn't, really. I'd personally drop -san and -kun and such nine tenths of the time. :)
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@myskaros Honey would work for some places I've seen kun used. (Asuna using Kirito-kun) but not so well in others (Elexis using Kotarou-kun). It seems to be an honorific with two very different meanings, depending on the speakers.
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@paul-nebeling You replied to the wrong person, but sure :P
