People over at the J Novel Club are knock off Yakuza
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@microdynames said in People over at the J Novel Club are knock off Yakuza:
@anpan He linked a communique from Sam Pinansky to the translator at japtem, released by japtem, in which, when specifically asked what if any legal right J-Novel Club has to the web novel, Sam stated that he did not control the web novel version's rights, but that the author would be within his rights to request a legal takedown and to use J-Novel Club as a messenger to convey this request.
From this, we may infer that, in the specific case of Arifureta (which may or may not be extrapolated to other series, to other licensors, or to other localizers), the web novel version does not strictly fall within J-Novel Club's legal territory. Thus, the question then becomes whether J-Novel Club is a monster yakuza for asking for voluntary removal and informing them of the author's rights when asked, because... some people want to read the web novel and not the light novel?
As to that point, I believe the moral argument is shaky, because it's not as though Japtem was translating with the author's permission, and it's not as though J-Novel Club's request constituted an official cease and desist under the terms of the DMCA either. They don't ask for entire series to be removed at once either, thus allowing the (still illegitimate, mind you) fan translation to serve the purpose of allowing people to read ahead of the light novel if they so choose, and addressing the concern many have expressed with Yen Press's takedowns that it takes years for the official translation to catch up to the fan translation's progress.
The key here is that, should any translator choose to ignore this request, no action is actually taken, as is seen for example in the case of Smartphone. That is, removal of already-released volumes is a voluntary action to support the author, and not a legally compelled action to avoid a lawsuit under the terms of an official cease and desist notice by any party (whether the author, the Japanese publisher, or the English publisher). By all metrics, this policy is about as lenient as it gets in the industry. The only policy that could be significantly more lenient than this is if they ignored the fan translations completely, merely on the grounds that "the web novel and the light novel are two completely separate products", which, let's face it, is very thin ice.
Just FYI that IIRC the only series Yen Press has actually issued DMCAs for is Danmachi. All other DMCAs including the great Xmass Massacre were issued by Kadokawa themselves.
Also as mentioned, some translations of JNC series are still on-going despite their licensing. Sam said before that they'll just beat them in terms of speed and quality, and its kind of true. Very shortly after Realist Volume 5 comes out, JNC will have surpassed the WN fan translations. Fan translations aren't going to be able to catch up unless they can hammer out multiple long chapters per week as very few fan translators can complete an entire volume every ~2 months.
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Just FYI that IIRC the only series Yen Press as actually issued DMCAs for is Danmachi. All other DMCAs including the great Xmass Massacre were issued by Kadokawa themselves.
I believe the C&Ds for Haruhi and Book Girl and Spice and Wolf came from Yen's parent company Hachette. As to your second point, now that Yen Press is owned by Kadokawa, is there really a huge distinction anymore?
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I honestly don't know about Haruhi, Book Girl and Spice & Wolf.
The Xmass Massacre had occured before Kadokawa bought 51% of YP's shares.
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@village-idiot I'm pretty sure the negotiations for that sale were already underway around when it happened however.
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Man, this is some awesome entertainment, I need more popcorn.
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So what I gather from reading this is that the Yakuza are people who point out when others are doing something illegal and let them know of potential legal repercussions that could arise. And from further reading of the thread I learn that they rarely take the legally afforded to them actions to take care of these issues.
Huh, makes me wonder why Yakuza have such a bad name?! Furthermore the Japanese must have some strange tastes in how much they’ve loved Yakuza movie and tv. Must be their taste in slice of life.
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@village-idiot ugh, the Christmas massacre, all those great series removed with no localisation in sight (for most I read at least) just because they could. Which sadly was their right.
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Now that I am awake, I will start by commending the mods for keeping this thread open. Legitimately surprised that it didn't get taken down.
Now, time for the gritty. I want the authors to get paid. As a great deal of my paychecks in the last couple years have gone to acquiring the LN versions of my favorite series. In fact, if it wasn't for the treatment of the literal foundation of why ANY OF YOU CARE about Japanese novels, then I would I would be probably this sites number 1 customer. I already have a Crunchyroll account and I love it for their professionally translated, high quality products. So for the dismissive people missing the point, I will just leave this here and probably ignore you from now on.
@Microdynames How you say things matters, phrasing matters. "Be careful, if you let your dog into the road then it might get hit by a car." vs "If you let your dog into the road, I will hit it with my car." One is a warning and the other is a clear threat.
And quoting the offender doesn't solve anything since you are going to 'believe' your guy and I am clearly going to believe mine.
And to his statement itself, why not just crush them with their merciless translation quality and speed? Why bother with the 'asking nicely' if you were going to already be the better product then why would you even address them if it wasn't with malicious intent? Simply, they are trying to scare as many people as they can because they dont want anyone actually competing with them. But of course, this is infering. -
@sam-pinansky said in People over at the J Novel Club are knock off Yakuza:
@jnovelaremonsters I am highly offended at this post.
"knock off" Yakuza? Oh yeah? Don't be surprised if you wake up one day and can only count to 9.
I do appreciate the response with levity, even made me chuckle. And I am sorry you feel offended but I cannot support bullying the weak.
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Firstly, the web novel translators have no legal or moral right to compete with them, so any response short of actually telling the Japanese rights owners to send legal notices is already a gesture of stupendous magnanimity.
Secondly, it's not bullying if the request for removal has no legal teeth and everybody knows it because no legal action has ever been taken against noncompliant parties.
Thirdly, and this is now venturing into personal speculation, I believe the primary intention is that they want the fan translators to link to them to give them publicity, which is why they never bothered to follow up on Yukkuri or larvyde for volume 2 onwards of Realist, because the link to volume 1 already served its purpose.
Lastly, please show me a statement that is in any way comparable to "I will hit your dog with my car", because the only comparable statement would be "I will tell Chuuni Suki to DMCA you", which is not what was said at all.
And quoting the offender doesn't solve anything since you are going to 'believe' your guy and I am clearly going to believe mine.
It's not a question of belief though is it? I don't doubt that japtem did actually receive that email with that wording. What I doubt is that J-Novel Club ever actually bothered to try and get the authors to DMCA noncompliant translators, which is in my mind the only thing that would actually elevate this to a serious threat, by giving it real teeth. And belief in japtem's trustworthiness has nothing to do with that.
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implying that fan translators are “the weak”
They are translating fictional stories without the authors premission, while simultaneously giving the author nothing back for their work.
It’s not like they are transcribing holy texts for the masses during a time of religious prosecution.
When there are no alternatives for the rest of the world to go entertainment yes piracy is the go to (not that I endorse piracy in any way whatsoever, I am in the wait for it to be licensed camp) however when there is a legal way to support the work the piracy becomes obsolete.
People always say “I would buy it if you license”, and “I wanna read that please bring it over”, and now that JNC is licensing and brining it over here you are saying send it back and let the fan translators keep doing it for free.
Also did you ever think that you are the bully, cause you are here putting down JNC about them legally licensing something and having the unofficial illegal copy taken down...
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@jnovelaremonsters okay, so it sounds like your against "strongly" worded letters but fine with DMCAs? Since I can't think of a publisher that actually hasn't done any DMCAs. If I'm wrong please correct me since it would be useful to know.
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@jnovelaremonsters said in People over at the J Novel Club are knock off Yakuza:
Now that I am awake, I will start by commending the mods for keeping this thread open. Legitimately surprised that it didn't get taken down.
These mods aren't Evilore. xC
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https://imgur.com/gallery/Q0w1g
Friend made this, according to the OP this is Sam.Edit: I give up trying to get it to embed the image.
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@microdynames Thats on the assumption that the authors aren't okay with it. And 'moral' right is a bullshit argument to begin with. The only reason why ANY of you know of any of these series is because of the hard work of these 'pirates' have done. There would be an entire market in the west that wouldn't have known, or paid money for their content. The whole reason that the authors are getting money from the west is purely through the efforts of the fan translations. But to you, I guess the fan translators should feel thankful that they didnt have their legs broken. -_-
If they wanted a link to their content, then why not simply ask for it? Why not cooperate? While I 100% applaud the recruitment of SOME (understandably can't employ all) of the translators, they could still work with the community to make it better. And I can sense it, your response of 'they dont have to, they have the legal high ground' is true and valid but the difference being one is being an awesome company that everyone benefits from and other is just being a dick.
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So, you are butt-hurt because their crappy machine translation which is not only a disgrace to the author's work, but a disgrace to both Japanese and English languages was asked to be removed? :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Ey Boss. Want me to break this guy's shins? Wrench 'im in the clavicle? Teach 'im a little lesson about who's in charge round 'ere?
Pick yer poison, bub. You jus' met yer maker. This is our town, scrub.
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@hakomari said in People over at the J Novel Club are knock off Yakuza:
So, you are butt-hurt because their crappy machine translation which is not only a disgrace to the author's work, but a disgrace to both Japanese and English languages was asked to be removed? :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I feel your speech is an offense to the English language. Does that mean that you are no longer talk? Grow up.
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@jnovelaremonsters "You are no longer talk"
Bud you can't say anything about disgracing the English language
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@jnovelaremonsters said in People over at the J Novel Club are knock off Yakuza:
Thats on the assumption that the authors aren't okay with it.
Great, why don't you ask the author yourself if they prefer to have money for their work or not have money for their work? I'll be waiting.
And 'moral' right is a bullshit argument to begin with.
Interesting, because your entire argument appears to be predicated on the immorality of contacting fan translators to (voluntarily, mind you, because there are no actual legal teeth behind the request) gradually remove their stuff.
The only reason why ANY of you know of any of these series is because of the hard work of these 'pirates' have done. There would be an entire market in the west that wouldn't have known, or paid money for their content. The whole reason that the authors are getting money from the west is purely through the efforts of the fan translations.
Splendid, so the fan translation has served its purpose and there is now a legal avenue to reading in English that supports the author. Is there any good reason to leave up still the volumes that are already available officially in English if your intent is to actually support the author with money from the west? Are the fan translators sending any of their Patreon or ad money to the authors?
But to you, I guess the fan translators should feel thankful that they didnt have their legs broken. -_-
Ah, so you are now resorting to placing words in one's mouth. Yes, a cease and desist is entirely comparable to having one's legs broken.
If they wanted a link to their content, then why not simply ask for it? Why not cooperate?
Do you understand that a phased removal over time instead of the alleged threatened "we will tell the author to nuke you" itself constitutes cooperation? "We will provide the official works that support the author, you can continue to provide a service to those who can't wait for the next volume to be released".
but the difference being one is being an awesome company that everyone benefits from and other is just being a dick.
When the baseline is a "nuke it, shut it down" from a lawyer as per Yen Press and Kadokawa, this level of cooperation is already laudable.
