JNC Writing Support Group
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@Angelus said in JNC Writing Support Group:
Although I've got some good ideas for an isekai story (well, I think they're good), I've instead gone ahead and made a solid start on the second volume of my competition entry. I've run into an issue about inclusivity, though.
I'm not worried too much about race because the abuse of the other sentient races of my world by humans is one of the major plot elements, it's more about gender and sexuality. The protag is a straight male and there is also a strong female character with whom he now has a relationship (whether he likes it or not) and of course he has associates who play minor roles, but the other major human characters who drive the plot will inevitably be various villains that he will encounter. This means that if I want to have more diverse characters, they will likely be bad people. So that leaves me with a dilemma - either I don't have diverse characters, or only the villains are diverse. Any thoughts, anyone?
Ignorance. Other characters don't have to be villains if they have been raised on stereotypes or to see traits in certain ways. What sets villains apart, at least in something like racism or sexuality, is how wilful the intent behind it is or how strong it is. That is not necessarily true in reality but it can be played on in fiction.
Alternatively, you could have the villains be deceptively friendly or understanding so they seem like allies. Then when their true colours are revealed the betrayal hits all the harder.
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@Angelus It isn't always easy—but, personally, as long as the characters don't lean into negative stereotypes, I think it’s okay. I mean a totally badass villain can be cool and not demeaning. Conversely there are totally straight heroes that are totally cringe.
I know that everyone doesn't think that way—there are some folks that just want to be offended—not much you can do about those. And there are folks that will feel that your story somehow means you are sweeping with a broad brush and saying every situation is the same.
There is also the issue of tokinism—I mean do folks really need to know the sexuality of all your characters? If it really isn't intrinsic to the character, then don't shoehorn it in, but if adds to the character’s depth, then go for it!(Of course, this is coming from someone who hasn't written that much. But I did have a same-sex couple in my favorite Tearmoon fan-fic—I think it worked—it was mostly subtle and sweet —and helped define the characters as well as her parents—didn’t stop me from getting a couple mild gags out of it—but I their relationship matched in tone with the straight characters. The characters started as antagonists but ended up on the side of the angels in the end).
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@QuixoticHorizon said in JNC Writing Support Group:
Alternatively, you could have the villains be deceptively friendly or understanding so they seem like allies. Then when their true colours are revealed the betrayal hits all the harder.
I used that ploy in volume 1 so I thought I'd have some plain ol' antagonists this time around. And I think I get what you mean, that a person can act morally in terms of their own beliefs and still do bad things without actually being a "villain" as such.
@jazzyjeoff said in JNC Writing Support Group:
There is also the issue of tokinism—I mean do folks really need to know the sexuality of all your characters? If it really isn't intrinsic to the character, then don't shoehorn it in, but if adds to the character’s depth, then go for it!
Aye, there's the rub, as they say. I create a world in which I make it clear that relationships of any kind are permitted, but then if I put in a "bad" queer character it's reinforcing outdated stereotypes, if I put in a "good" queer character it's tokenism, and if I don't put one in at all it's heteronormative. To continue the Shakespearean theme, I'm hoist with my own petard!
I need to think about this a lot more, at least I have several other chapters to write before I need to introduce the first new antagonist.
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This is just how I would approach it which doesn’t mean it is the best way. I think this one comes down a bit to show - not tell. You can say it is a world that accepts all relationships but in this case it would be good to show it (without the need for characters to be good or evil).
Have some side characters leave a bar together or have one your main characters pass a couple in the in hallway of an inn or something. Just a few little drops like that.
That way the relationships of main characters are about how they interact rather than the relationship they are in.
Little drops normalising the relations/action of people in your world means it is not just the relationships between the main characters that readers see.
Hopefully this makes sense. It can be a sensitive issue but you know your characters and what is right from them.
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How are y’all doing. Just finished watching the most recent episode of Apothecary Diaries (wonderful!), which leaves me counting down to the next episode of Frieren—I am going to feel a little lost when their seasons’ end (open to replacement suggestions!).
Watching them has me convinced that most great stories have their fair share of plotholes—but if the reader (viewer) becomes sufficiently invested, a lot can be overlooked—even for a story that is pretty smart. -
Hello fellow writers! I was curious about something and figured I'd ask here: on average how long does it take you to finish writing a novel? I was amazed when reading the competition thread that some people started when the contest was announced and managed to write 80-100k words!
The story I submitted for the contest was written on paper, in script form, over the course of ~4 years. Converting it to book form took maybe 6 months (66k words). I was less into completing my work at the time I started this despite having so many ideas I want to convey.
The second story I wrote, the first half took me 8 months (9 chapters, 30k words) and I'm still working on the second half, but am at the 2 month mark. For the first half at least, I already had the ending in mind and wrote around that.
I have a different story that would suit this kind of contest better, but even if I start now I'm confident it won't be done by the deadline. I'll get to it after the other one.
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@mononyan It will always depend on how much time you dedicated to writing. I have been cooking my book in my head for years, I wanted to put on paper but always neglected. In the end with the competition it took me around four months to write it (70k+ words). Right now I am stuck on the second volume, almost two months and 28k words, and I am dedicating time to learn more about blacksmithing to better represent it in the book.
From most light novels I have seen it, it will be around four months to a year between releases, which includes editing and revising, but it also good to notice that some of them were already webnovels before being published.
I would say take your time and enjoy it, otherwise if you push too hard it will become a hassle. -
@mononyan I started when I found out about the contest, and hit just less than 50k words.
I went in knowing that it would be difficult and decided that I didn’t have the luxury of planning, so I picked a genre I liked and and sort of used a story that I read years ago and hated as inspiration for my starting point. Then I decided I would essentially “fix” the story—making the characters likable and giving them depth. I also gave it unique “hook” that coincidentally helped hide some of the deficiencies in my writing skill. The characters ended up driving the story’s plot completely and I was lucky that the pieces fell into place and I stumbled onto an ending that I liked. It ended up nothing like the story that I hated. I did have one person proofread (once), which was helpful since I am very error-prone. I was happy with the result, but have avoided rereading it since the submission, because I am afraid of the errors I will inevitably find.The only other full length-novel I ever wrote was a fanfic and it probably took a year to write and it took another year to remove a lot of the errors and polish (I posted it with a ton of errors, some are still there). There were world building things I had to do for the contest story that I didn’t have to do for the fanfic—and the fanfic had a lot more humor—so some chapters were built around gags, which is easier for me to do well than drama.
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@GhostMechanic It seems the competition was the perfect motivation you needed to start writing. Something similar happened with me. I entered a different competition in 2021 with the simple goals of wanting to try and also get reader opinions, which is when I converted the script into a book. It was riddled with errors and I didn't win, but still finished in time and felt satisfied.
@jazzyjeoff That's an interesting way to come up with a 'quick' idea! Also, I find a new error every time I read through my story so I can't blame you for avoiding rereading. I should have done the same with my submission.
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Recently, when I REALLY get in the writing mood, I get called into work. A few weeks ago I almost completed an entire chapter within a few hours before I got the call. It's frustrating, but at least I sometimes have enough downtime at work to write notes, dialogue, etc.
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@mononyan I started 21st December and managed to finish 99k words by 31st January. But I burnt myself out in the process, so would not recommend.
Everyone writes differently, but I would be happy with 500-1000 words per day.
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Hi there. For the answer it depends on the deadline :) I have a horrible habit of playing around with stories when they don’t have a reason to be written quickly.
No - there is a long, long “mulling” time and often a short writing period followed by a significant editing phase.
My best is 80,000 words in a week (because I had to take time off work to finish) but there were at least three more edits after the rough words were down on a page. On a good day I can do between 3-5,000 words. But it is all the days in between that catch me.
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@Damon-Cavalchini
80,000 words in a week? That’s just insane! -
@mononyan said in JNC Writing Support Group:
I have a different story that would suit this kind of contest better, but even if I start now I'm confident it won't be done by the deadline. I'll get to it after the other one.
Start and see how you go. I have an isekai that I have been playing around with in my head that I should be working on for the next round instead of writing a sequel for one of the novels I submitted to this competition on the dream it gets picked up and they need another quickly :)
The only advice I can give is to write at your pace rather than worrying about a deadline that hasn’t been announced.
Once we know what is happening, so will you. Until then, just enjoy the act of writing and creating.
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@jazzyjeoff said in JNC Writing Support Group:
@Damon-Cavalchini
80,000 words in a week? That’s just insane!I will never do it again. It was one of those opportunities I found out about really late and was caught in very time-intensive job so I had to grab the chance to write when I could.
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@jazzyjeoff said in JNC Writing Support Group:
How are y’all doing. Just finished watching the most recent episode of Apothecary Diaries (wonderful!), which leaves me counting down to the next episode of Frieren—I am going to feel a little lost when their seasons’ end (open to replacement suggestions!).
Watching them has me convinced that most great stories have their fair share of plotholes—but if the reader (viewer) becomes sufficiently invested, a lot can be overlooked—even for a story that is pretty smart.I think there is a general misunderstanding about plot holes in general (not saying in this case). A plot hole should really be where the plot contradicts itself - not where something is unexplained.
Apothecary Dairies often leaves things under explained (relying on the reader/viewer to join the dots) but in my opinion doesn’t actually contradict itself.
I haven’t seen the last episode so maybe it does but I haven’t really seen too many glaring errors to date.
That said, I will forgive a lot for great characters and an intriguing story.
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@GhostMechanic said in JNC Writing Support Group:
...I am dedicating time to learn more about blacksmithing to better represent it in the book.
That's something I never really considered before writing my story - skills/crafts/etc. that I had no knowledge of. Some things I was happy to handwave, like how they run a cryptocurrency on steam-powered Babbage-era calculating engines (look, it's fantasy, OK?), but other things I wanted to present realistically like horses and riding so I had to read up about that.
For my second volume, which is currently at 7K words, I had to learn about boats and sailing.
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@mononyan said in JNC Writing Support Group:
Hello fellow writers! I was curious about something and figured I'd ask here: on average how long does it take you to finish writing a novel? I was amazed when reading the competition thread that some people started when the contest was announced and managed to write 80-100k words!
Because of time management and not finding out about the contest until fairly late, I wrote mine in about a month. I got about 1.5k by end of December, and did another 38k or so in January before I submitted on the 30th.
I think my best word count on any given day was about 2.5k; but I find that I am constantly revising and editing sentences as I write, so without those deletions my actual daily word count is probably at least 1k higher.
I work the afternoon shift from 3-11pm, and I usually have to leave the house by 1:30pm to get there on time because the traffic can be bad, then I get home just before midnight. So in January I would wake up between 9:30-10am, write for a couple hours, go to work, come back, and then write some more from midnight to 1 or 2am before bed. Most of those days I would only get a couple hundred words done, it was Saturdays and Sundays where I had to just pound it out.
As for my best time... back in high school I was in a writing class and decided to write a novel for my final project. Being lazy and procrastinating, I did almost nothing until the due date was almost there. Then I had to pound out 3/4 of the novel in just two days and hope that there was enough paper and printer ink in the house. It would have been one day, but I was helped out by a massive snowfall that cancelled the school buses and gave me one extra day to write. I never want to do that again...
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My Tearmoon fan-fiction just broke 10,000 views on Royal Road. That translates to maybe 200 people that read the whole thing, but it makes me very happy—especially since it seems that most folks that started reading it finished reading it. My goal when writing it was to have three people read it and maybe enjoy it.
Anyway, for me it is happy thing and I wanted to share. -
@jazzyjeoff said in JNC Writing Support Group:
My Tearmoon fan-fiction just broke 10,000 views on Royal Road. That translates to maybe 200 people that read the whole thing, but it makes me very happy—especially since it seems that most folks that started reading it finished reading it. My goal when writing it was to have three people read it and maybe enjoy it.
Anyway, for me it is happy thing and I wanted to share.Woo hoo. Congratulations. Writing something that people read and engage with is an amazing thing.
And based on what I’ve read so far, you’re a show-in for the next round. :)
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@jazzyjeoff said in JNC Writing Support Group:
My Tearmoon fan-fiction just broke 10,000 views on Royal Road. That translates to maybe 200 people that read the whole thing, but it makes me very happy—especially since it seems that most folks that started reading it finished reading it. My goal when writing it was to have three people read it and maybe enjoy it.
Anyway, for me it is happy thing and I wanted to share.And another finished reader and happy customer. Great stuff. It is really easy to see this as another alternative timeline to what we eventually got in the official books.
