What exactly IS an isekai?
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VRMMO versus Isekai:
- VRMMO's are "another world" and therefore Isekai by definition.
- VRMMO's are all artificial worlds, rather than "real" (even though they are fantasy ones) worlds. That seems to tilt VRMMO's more towards fantasy. (In my opinion)
- Outside of those two points, the two genres seem to me to be virtually identical.
- As for "death game VRMMO's", how are they different from "real world Isekai" where of you for, you're dead, and the MC is very aware of that fact?
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@Paul-Nebeling I would imagine the biggest thing would be that user in VRMMO games are impacted by the state of their bodies in the "real" world. One example is the SAO Aincrad side stories with how players were suffering impacts in game because their real bodies were catching colds or flus (not that most series in this space deal with this particular issue). I can't think of any series that bill themselves as isekai have the person exist simultaneously in both worlds where their state in both worlds impact each other. Even a back and forth transfer type story like Welcome to Japan, Ms Elf they only exist in one world at any given time.
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@jpwong said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
@sorvani The biggest problem with VRMMO "stuck" series is that the reward for clearing the death game tends to be let out, so unless the series is a bad end series where everyone dies, the tag will never stick. The ones where it's a death game due to some otherworldly power tends to use the setup for the series to be true isekai though.
let out at the end would not be a drop of that to me, because that is no different than beating the demon lord and getting to go home in other stories of the genre. SAO (was then wasn't quickly, so simply is not), Bofuri, Shangri-La, and such are not.
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@Paul-Nebeling said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
by definition.
This is the bit people need to not be hung up on. Because the definition of a word is only the beginning. I don't know how many times I have to repeat that vernacular usage is just as important.
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@sorvani And then there is the way that the Japanese define the word and the way non-Japanese have imported the word into their language. Let's face it, Isekai is a borrow word in English.
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@Paul-Nebeling I would imagine that even in Japan, the dictionary definition of the word is used differently from how the Japanese anime/manga/LN culture uses it. Just purely from the "another world" definition, almost all stories could be classified as another world given that even if they purport to be our world, there's clear differences that would indicate they are really close parallel dimensions rather than being our world.
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I think we mostly agree that an Isekai requires a transferee to another world, which acts as a base of reference to why the other world is unique. This applies to a variety of definitions for what constitutes a different world.
I'll bring up a theme common to the genre, beyond the setting. That is the transferee desires conditions different from their life on Earth. We see this represented by the common types of death: Overwork because they're sick of the Capitalist Economy, suicide because of school bullying, Hikkikomori/social dropouts, or magical summoning when the current world is boring. Both school culture and work culture became ruthlessly competitive after the 90's economic crash and this ended up reflected in the isekai genre. This desire for change and freedom is where the tropes like OP Protag, Super Kill Guy, Superior Nippon Food, or Slave Harem come from. In the other world the protag gains access to power, friendship, freedom, or sex they were denied in the real world.
While not universal, this theme shows up in many stories- Jobless Reincarnation, Overlord, ReZero, Eminence in Shadow, Death March to a Parallel World, etc.
A recent variation is when the Protag is magically summoned but gets a "weak, secretly OP power" and is kicked out. They get to have the same power fantasy but the rejection takes place in the isekai, not on earth.
Another variation is "Trapped in a novel" where they almost always are a wealthy noble in a political struggle.
The "desire to escape Earth Culture" also applies to many "not isekai," and these stories are almost isekai in their execution. Examples include Zom 100 where it's not a different world but a changed Earth, but he prefers the apocalypse to his job. Or Solo Levelling where the "other world" appears on Earth in the form of Dungeons, and the MC gains power/women/freedom where before he was a powerless loser. Depending on how far you're willing to stretch the definition of "Otherworld" these stories take place in an Earth that is transformed to the point you could say they are "different" from the usual Earth. I would call these "Isekai Adjacent" or "Psuedo Isekai."
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@Outinthegardener said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
A recent variation is when the Protag is magically summoned but gets a "weak, secretly OP power" and is kicked out. They get to have the same power fantasy but the rejection takes place in the isekai, not on earth.
This trope requires no isekai shenanigans. Plenty of novels use this without it. It is also one of the tropes I detest the most.
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@sorvani some isekai don't even require the isekai, when the protag never mentions earth after the first page.
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@Outinthegardener who needs this earth anyway
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@jpwong A very valid point.
@Outinthegardener Or displaced in time. I can think of three JNC Isekai titles that the "other world" turned out to be "our" Earth, just massively displaced in time. I won't mention the series because "Spoilers.". Two series explained how magic existed, the other didn't even try.
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@Paul-Nebeling said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
@jpwong A very valid point.
@Outinthegardener Or displaced in time. I can think of three JNC Isekai titles that the "other world" turned out to be "our" Earth, just massively displaced in time. I won't mention the series because "Spoilers.". Two series explained how magic existed, the other didn't even try.
Eh. Add me to the votes for 'isekai needs to be an actual other world' - displaced in time doesn't really count if you know it's your world, just changed.
Tearmoon is part of what I'd call the 'do-over' trope; the two most notable trope namers I can think of are Peggy Sue Got Married (the earliest example of the trope I'm aware of) or Groundhog Day. The MC is sent back in time with knowledge of the future, and has to try and fix things to prevent a Bad End.
(Back to the Future II is an interesting reverse example; the villain is the one who goes back in time with the information to change history, and the hero has to stop him. There's also the somewhat related trope from Star Trek: First Contact, but I think that's drifting far enough away from the original trope; the plot isn't using foreknowledge to make different decisions, it's a time traveller taking direct action. "Go back and kill Hitler" fits here as well.
...hm, is it a good moment to drop in a link to "WikiHistory"? :) )
...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.
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@Outinthegardener said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
I think we mostly agree that an Isekai requires a transferee to another world, which acts as a base of reference to why the other world is unique. This applies to a variety of definitions for what constitutes a different world.
I'll bring up a theme common to the genre, beyond the setting. That is the transferee desires conditions different from their life on Earth. We see this represented by the common types of death: Overwork because they're sick of the Capitalist Economy, suicide because of school bullying, Hikkikomori/social dropouts, or magical summoning when the current world is boring. Both school culture and work culture became ruthlessly competitive after the 90's economic crash and this ended up reflected in the isekai genre. This desire for change and freedom is where the tropes like OP Protag, Super Kill Guy, Superior Nippon Food, or Slave Harem come from. In the other world the protag gains access to power, friendship, freedom, or sex they were denied in the real world.
While not universal, this theme shows up in many stories- Jobless Reincarnation, Overlord, ReZero, Eminence in Shadow, Death March to a Parallel World, etc.
A recent variation is when the Protag is magically summoned but gets a "weak, secretly OP power" and is kicked out. They get to have the same power fantasy but the rejection takes place in the isekai, not on earth.
Another variation is "Trapped in a novel" where they almost always are a wealthy noble in a political struggle.
The "desire to escape Earth Culture" also applies to many "not isekai," and these stories are almost isekai in their execution. Examples include Zom 100 where it's not a different world but a changed Earth, but he prefers the apocalypse to his job. Or Solo Levelling where the "other world" appears on Earth in the form of Dungeons, and the MC gains power/women/freedom where before he was a powerless loser. Depending on how far you're willing to stretch the definition of "Otherworld" these stories take place in an Earth that is transformed to the point you could say they are "different" from the usual Earth. I would call these "Isekai Adjacent" or "Psuedo Isekai."
I don't agree with that at all. It isn't uncommon for isekai to involve characters that strongly want to go back to their own worlds, or at the very least have been happy on Earth. They might not be the majority, but I don't think there is any debate that Ascendance of a bookworm is an isekai, and Urano certainly didn't want to leave earth right after finally getting the librarian job she had been studying for for years.
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@Travis-Butler said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
@Paul-Nebeling said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
@jpwong A very valid point.
@Outinthegardener Or displaced in time. I can think of three JNC Isekai titles that the "other world" turned out to be "our" Earth, just massively displaced in time. I won't mention the series because "Spoilers.". Two series explained how magic existed, the other didn't even try.
Eh. Add me to the votes for 'isekai needs to be an actual other world' - displaced in time doesn't really count if you know it's your world, just changed.
Tearmoon is part of what I'd call the 'do-over' trope; the two most notable trope namers I can think of are Peggy Sue Got Married (the earliest example of the trope I'm aware of) or Groundhog Day. The MC is sent back in time with knowledge of the future, and has to try and fix things to prevent a Bad End.
(Back to the Future II is an interesting reverse example; the villain is the one who goes back in time with the information to change history, and the hero has to stop him. There's also the somewhat related trope from Star Trek: First Contact, but I think that's drifting far enough away from the original trope; the plot isn't using foreknowledge to make different decisions, it's a time traveller taking direct action. "Go back and kill Hitler" fits here as well.
...hm, is it a good moment to drop in a link to "WikiHistory"? :) )
I would disagree with that in the event where the displacement in time is great enough that Earth is basically completely different. In Conqueror from a doing kingdom Yuri was displaced in time (or at least it appears that way), but he was sent so far into the future that human civilization has entirely collapsed and new species of sentient creatures had formed civilizations, the only knowledge specific to earth that has helped him is geography.
Inuyasha is another common example. It is time travel, but magic and monsters are a thing in the past, and nearly none of the main character's knowledge specific to earth is applicable.
Utawarerumono is another example that is even more extreme, although it is less well known and not a JNC series. Not only are the main characters of the games/anime transported so far into the future that human civilization has collapsed and new civilizations have been formed by new species, but one of them also has amnesia.
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@Valanduin said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
I don't agree with that at all. It isn't uncommon for isekai to involve characters that strongly want to go back to their own worlds, or at the very least have been happy on Earth. They might not be the majority, but I don't think there is any debate that Ascendance of a bookworm is an isekai, and Urano certainly didn't want to leave earth right after finally getting the librarian job she had been studying for for years.
Like I said, it's not a universal theme but a common one. It's more common than uncommon. Even in stories where the protag misses the Earth, they often end up having fun or being otherwise empowered by the isekai; this is a 'soft' version of the theme "get away from the conditions on Earth." It allows the reader to self-insert and imagine the power fantasy in various forms.
I'll try to clarify my original argument; What I was trying to get at is it's not isekai without a transferee who can act as a comparison between the two worlds. The more common version is "A desire to escape the conditions of exploitative, competitive capitalism." The less common version is "Was happy on Earth, but manages to adapt and thrive in the other world."
In both versions, it's common that isekai protags bring elements of Japanese culture with them- Superior Nippon Rice and Soy Sauce and Baths, or they use their knowledge of science and tech to bring innovation, or they're the best gamer who dominates the VRMMO, or they've read the novel 100 times and know how to outsmart everyone. It's a form of the power fantasy that in another world, you are unique and special. It's very, very rare to find examples where the isekai'd protag is miserable and can't succeed in their new life.
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@Travis-Butler said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
Add me to the votes for 'isekai needs to be an actual other world' - displaced in time doesn't really count if you know it's your world, just changed.
Would that include series where it is discovered much later in the story that it's the same world, but differing times?
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@Valanduin said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
@Travis-Butler said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
@Paul-Nebeling said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
@jpwong A very valid point.
@Outinthegardener Or displaced in time. I can think of three JNC Isekai titles that the "other world" turned out to be "our" Earth, just massively displaced in time. I won't mention the series because "Spoilers.". Two series explained how magic existed, the other didn't even try.
Eh. Add me to the votes for 'isekai needs to be an actual other world' - displaced in time doesn't really count if you know it's your world, just changed.
Tearmoon is part of what I'd call the 'do-over' trope; the two most notable trope namers I can think of are Peggy Sue Got Married (the earliest example of the trope I'm aware of) or Groundhog Day. The MC is sent back in time with knowledge of the future, and has to try and fix things to prevent a Bad End.
(Back to the Future II is an interesting reverse example; the villain is the one who goes back in time with the information to change history, and the hero has to stop him. There's also the somewhat related trope from Star Trek: First Contact, but I think that's drifting far enough away from the original trope; the plot isn't using foreknowledge to make different decisions, it's a time traveller taking direct action. "Go back and kill Hitler" fits here as well.
...hm, is it a good moment to drop in a link to "WikiHistory"? :) )
I would disagree with that in the event where the displacement in time is great enough that Earth is basically completely different. In Conqueror from a doing kingdom Yuri was displaced in time (or at least it appears that way), but he was sent so far into the future that human civilization has entirely collapsed and new species of sentient creatures had formed civilizations, the only knowledge specific to earth that has helped him is geography.
Inuyasha is another common example. It is time travel, but magic and monsters are a thing in the past, and nearly none of the main character's knowledge specific to earth is applicable.
Utawarerumono is another example that is even more extreme, although it is less well known and not a JNC series. Not only are the main characters of the games/anime transported so far into the future that human civilization has collapsed and new civilizations have been formed by new species, but one of them also has amnesia.
I think it comes down to familiarity, or lack thereof. I don't consider Inu-Yasha isekai because even if there's magic and monsters, it's still her history (confirmed by the reincarnation!) and there are still points of familiarity.
Conqueror... stalled out around book 2, but yeah, from what I remember, I'd call it isekai.
Utawarerumono I don't remember very well, but from what I do remember I wouldn't call it isekai. IIRC the MC was amnesiac; he turned up as a blank slate, and the idea that he came from our world was meaningless because he could have come from anywhere and the story would have been the same.
@Paul-Nebeling said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
Would that include series where it is discovered much later in the story that it's the same world, but differing times?
Depends on how much the reveal matters. If it's not obvious at the beginning, then it passes the lack-of-familiarity criteria; but if the reveal makes you re-evaluate everything you've seen in terms of our world, then it stops being one at that point. (Realist Hero, I'm not sure how to judge there; the 'really Earth's descendants' angle was so badly muddled that I lost a fair amount of respect for the story.)
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@Valanduin said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
In Conqueror from a doing kingdom Yuri was displaced in time (or at least it appears that way)
Can you reference this in a book? I never got that feeling. Instead it was reincarnation into a parallel earth
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Y'all have brought up great points and most of what I would have said has already brought up.
My delineation for what determines an iseaki is simple:
Is the world they were transported to Significantly different from the place they were?
↙️ ↘️
Yes No
⬇️ ⬇️
Then isekai Then not isekaiCorollary: extreme time displacement (i.e. far future or far past) count as isekai in this distinction, as the world is significantly different from the world as the MC existed in before.
Side note: VRMMO stories are isekai-adjacent as they technically do not include transportation (just turning on a game console) and in a significant number of cases the MC can free turn the game on and off.
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@sorvani said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
@Valanduin said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
In Conqueror from a doing kingdom Yuri was displaced in time (or at least it appears that way)
Can you reference this in a book? I never got that feeling. Instead it was reincarnation into a parallel earth
That's my take on it too, he was sent to a parallel earth in the past. I don't think anything presented in the story so far indicates this is somehow the far distant future, and it sure as heck isn't the past.
@Travis-Butler said in What exactly IS an isekai?:
Realist Hero, I'm not sure how to judge there
Just going to spoiler the whole reply in case there are people reading this who aren't caught up on Realist Hero's story
