May we get light novel translations with honorifics
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So I've noticed from the few series I've sampled that the translations are very Western. Honorifics are replaced with the closest English equivalent (or dropped) and some character names don't match the sub. I personally find this detracting from the reading experience; I'm sure that some prefer it the way it is. May we just have an option to switch between them?
For example an option to toggle between:- Jonouchi-san
- Mr. Joey
Going from what we have now (2) back to 1 doesn't seem like something that could be easily automated. Could get by with a simple find-replace for just the names, but as honorifics don't have a 1 to 1 mapping, they seem harder to deal with.
I propose asking the translators to just encode both options in the source. Like changing
Mr. Joeyin the epub to[Mr. Joey|Jonouchi-san]. In this form, it would be trivial for a script to select either version dynamically. In other words, one could easily switch between seeing Mr. Joey and Jonouchi-san. It wouldn't take up that much more space and don't think it would be asking too much of the translators (please correct me if I'm wrong). It also wouldn't affect people who like things how they are.Here's hoping I'm not the only person who would appreciate this.
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I can think of some potential issues with this:
- It means the epubs would not work by default.
- It would introduce a complexity for the pre-pubs.
- If JNC did a print version they couldn't print both and it could be jarring for people to go between the two for a single series (similar for those moving from the Kindle version to the epub version).
- If people are following existing series that didn't have honorifics then it can be jarring to switch between that and a series which uses honorifics.
- The amount of additional work would be unlikely to result in significant increased sales.
So a lot of effort for something which would arguably create more problems than it solved.
For some explanations for why JNC often didn't opt to use the original honorifics by default see https://forums.j-novel.club/topic/635/translation-sfx and https://forums.j-novel.club/topic/642/an-opinion-about-honorific
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Honorifics have their place, depending on the story. Bookworm, as an example, is set in a decidedly not Japan world. The original could be considered a "chronical of the life of Myne, translated from the original language spoken into Japanese". When the world setting isn't Japan, the honorifics are out of place, in my opinion.
Other series, such as The Irregular at Magic High School, are set in Japan, and usually have many important distinction in rank. References to "Tatsuya", "Tatsuya-san", "Tatsuya-sama", "Tatsuya-dono", etc., are important in the interaction of the characters within the story universe.
Personally, I would not want the "option text", as it interrupts the flow of the story.
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@taapaye
I must admit, I don't notice when honorifics are used well. (kind of like a good haircut doesn't look like you just got a haircut) Can you indicate which titles you find the lack of honorifics have a bad effect on the work?I read banned books
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I don't mind if the honorifics are removed as long as the setting is not based on Japanese culture.
If the setting is in a medieval fantasy then it's fine if they are removed but if in that medieval setting there is a country or culture that is based from Japan then I expect that the people there would use honorifics and it would only be exclusive to that place.
But if the story uses a Japanese setting I would prefer to keep the honorifics as is. Even if the setting also has some sci-fi and supernatural elements.
JNC LN Ranking:
1st - Rokujouma
2nd - Realist Hero
3rd - Bookworm -
@bartzbb Agreed. If you've got a setting that's "Japan, but in the future" or "Japan, but with magic" or "Japan, but it's the Fantasy World Japan", honorifics make sense; it's still Japan, or close enough to be the store brand knockoff. Similarly, I can see series with multiple Japanese-origin characters interacting with each other keeping honorifics among themselves while the text sheds honorifics outside that specific group (so, for instance, in Monster Tamer, when people are doing things like "Takanaka-senpai" or "Yamada-kun" or w/e among other Saviors, that makes sense, and I can see an argument for keeping honorifics used by the Japanese characters when talking to the non-Japanese characters, but honorifics from the natives toward the Japanese characters makes little sense, if any).
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Hello,
As this topic is a suggestion topic for a feature, the discussion here should revolve around that.
If you wish to discuss the usage of honorifics in general please refer to either of the topics posted by Shiny above.
Thank you
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@shiny said in May we get light novel translations with honorifics:
I can think of some potential issues with this:
- It means the epubs would not work by default.
- It would introduce a complexity for the pre-pubs.
- If JNC did a print version they couldn't print both and it could be jarring for people to go between the two for a single series (similar for those moving from the Kindle version to the epub version).
- If people are following existing series that didn't have honorifics then it can be jarring to switch between that and a series which uses honorifics.
- The amount of additional work would be unlikely to result in significant increased sales.
So a lot of effort for something which would arguably create more problems than it solved.
One other issue is that the idea of "toggle-able alternate translations" is a slippery slope which allows for people to request all sorts of things to also be available as "alternate" text, like sibling addresses ("onii-chan" and the like), speech tics ("-desu"), or even stuff like the bear puns in Infinite Dendrogram to replace the "-kuma"s. It's the kind of thing that can easily get out of hand, for something that ultimately won't really affect sales much.
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- I don't think this has to be true. The default format could just pick what we currently use. Like have the default option be the one that removes honorifics so that the raw files looks the same as it is and works by default. Having the combined format just makes it easy to switch between but doesn't have to be presented to the user by default
- Would you elaborate on the complexity for pre-pubs vs finished volumes. I had thought they would be the same problem?
- I completely agree. I had hoped people who would take advantage of this would know and be ok with this not being the default/print release. Would think people who would appreciate this would prefer this over nothing
- I agree. But I feel like that is similar to coming off the anime (at least the sub) and seeing character names changes. I'm new here, but the first series I had checked out, Crest of the Starts, had the main character's named changed from Jinto to Jint.
- I would be inclined to agree that I wouldn't really help sales, but at least for me it would remove a main pro of fan translations
- Are you referring to the extra effort required of the translators or the extra UI work to integrate the feature? Or just the act of switching between them?
Thanks for the links.
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@taapaye I think what @Shiny means by "the epubs wouldn't work by default" is that most default epub readers wouldn't know how to work with those; I haven't heard of an epub with alternate text before, and I'm fairly certain it wouldn't be considered a standard feature, but rather something one would have to script in...
And I, for one, am about as good at scripting as I am at breathing saltwater.
EDIT: Also, regarding point 4, romanization is never exact. Sometimes anime, manga, and light novel subtitles/dubs romanize names differently because there are multiple equally-valid romanizations.
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as a feature, it's intriguing. I think that if a reader app supported different editorial choices it could add to the enjoyment of the story, or be distracting (so the default should be JNC Editor's choice)...but I wouldn't stop at honorifics. Some series lend themselves to annotations, footnotes etc. and in general there are elements of Japanese culture that in a translated work are often left unexplained in detail for the sake of the flow of the story, but, depending on how many previous LNs a reader has had experience with, might be interested in knowing more about without having to stop and do a google search.
for example:
Imagine a scene in a high school romcom, the MC and her boyfriend meet at a Tanabata festival for a date. He compliments her yukata, she thanks him and they agree to stroll before the fireworks start. They enjoy some local specialties; takoyaki, yakitori, grilled corn and for a treat some cotton candy. They were going to play more of the typical festival games but the boy says he doesn't know what he'd do with the fish. (they both giggle about his joke) ...
They tied their wishes to the tree just as the first skyrockets burst. The fireworks illuminate the writing that they had each hastily scrawled on the strips of paper:
"I want to stay with him forever"
"I wish to stay with her forever"
As the last of the fiery blossoms in the sky start to fade, he tentatively reaches for her hand...there are half a dozen +/- cultural references in that tableau I just made up.
If I went and tried to translate everything, it might lose some of its 'flavor', "fried octopus balls" just doesn't sound appealing, and if I tried to add context to define everything, it would be twice as long. Readers familiar with the genre, or who've watched anime would 'get' the references and why they are important. Someone new to the genre wouldn't - now if I had a way to turn on/off annotations or footnotes, the new reader would know that Tanabata (or the Star Festival) is a festival in July and it's details/significance, how it ties into the writing of wishes, hanging wishes on a bamboo sapling etc. Something about Yukata, what Takoyaki and Yakitori are, that a stereotypical festival game is catching goldfish with a delicate paper 'net' - hence the joke, how young folks being in love at a festival that celebrates lovers can be sweet etc...oh and yea then you could toggle honorifics on/off too
edit to add: this would only work in epub/finals - couldn't do it in print, and pre-pubs are not accessible in a reader app, I know that Apple's e-reader app has a 'turn annotations on/off" feature - I imagine other reader apps do too.
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@jon-mitchell
For a series on JNC, I would bring up Crest of the Stars. While the most off putting thing was the change of character names, Jinto -> Jint, think the lack of honorifics does detract enough by itself. There's the common trope of the main character being very casual with royalty and think it is easier to forget without honorifics ever being present.For other series I've tried on here, I haven't seen the media in other forms so don't have a point of comparison
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@taapaye "Jint" as a romanization for "Jinto" is perfectly acceptable. A lot of the time, when a word with an ending /t/ is brought into Japanese, it's transliterated as "to" (e.g. "Arbeit" --> "arubaito"). Removing an "o" from a final "to" isn't all that odd in terms of "how do we transliterate this".
Additionally, while I'm not 100% certain on this, I'm at least fairly confident that JNC translators get the original author's approval for any romanizations of names. I know that is for certain the case with Bookworm, with Quof sending a list with his romanization choices for all the new names in every book for Kazuki-sensei to look over and approve. I wouldn't be surprised if the other translators also did this.
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@thegrimlich
I'm not trying to imply that it is wrong but just that it is different than the Funimation subs. -
This never really bothers me one way or the other (as long as it's not a video game / anime with an English voice actor trying to use honorifics, which I find cringe; rather they don't use them there).
When I see big bro, I replace it with Oniichan or aniki in my mind (I don't think aniki stays in most translations?); when I see Mr Takeru I replace it with Takeru sensei in my mind (or vice versa). Sometimes you do come upon a story point where there's an honorific pun that they keep in, then go back to ignoring the honorifics after it, and that does feel off. Otherwise, don't notice it too much.
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@thegrimlich
I see the confusion. I'm not too aware all variation of epub files if any had such convenient features built into the spec. If they did great, but I was more suggesting that JNC just internally store the novel in the combined format and present 2 users 1 of the 2 "final" forms. Like having an option to download the "Westernized" version or the "non-Westernized" (for lack of better terms). Wouldn't require any end-user scripting.I do agree with @Jon-Mitchell that this could easily extend beyond just honorifics. The other examples given like translations of local customs would be easier for programs to infer and probably wouldn't require explicit, repetitive human effort once the initial mappings were established
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@taapaye There are so many instances of anime adaptation subs using different spellings than the official light novel translations that it's honestly something you'll just have to get used to. And it's not like the anime subbers will go out of their way to prioritize consistency with the light novels, either; Crunchyroll's subs for Ascendance of a Bookworm uses "Main" instead of "Myne" and "High Priest" and "Head Priest" instead of "High Bishop" and "High Priest", and that anime came out after the light novel translations started.
And a number of anime subs also remove honorifics. All things considered, if the reasoning behind this is to "be like the anime subs", that's not really a good reason.
Beyond that, the question of whether honorifics are really necessary to understand concepts like formality in speech, or if they're just a crutch for those who are too used to Japanese speak... well, that's a subject for another thread. The real question is whether logistically, trying to account for individual preferences in translations as an active feature is feasible or not, and honestly, I don't think it is, for the reasons mentioned before.
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@terrence said in May we get light novel translations with honorifics:
This never really bothers me one way or the other (as long as it's not a video game / anime with an English voice actor trying to use honorifics, which I find cringe; rather they don't use them there).
When I see big bro, I replace it with Oniichan or aniki in my mind (I don't think aniki stays in most translations?); when I see Mr Takeru I replace it with Takeru sensei in my mind (or vice versa). Sometimes you do come upon a story point where there's an honorific pun that they keep in, then go back to ignoring the honorifics after it, and that does feel off. Otherwise, don't notice it too much.
I quite agree, its habituation- I find myself mentally inserting honorifics if they were removed (and it is relevant). For the same reason I prefer 'subs' to 'dubs' when watching anime - I'll hear the honorifics even if the subtitle lacks it.
BTW A high school tough guy would never call his peer/leader "oniichan" but would call him "aniki". I can imagine my kid calling his buddy "bro" or "bro-seph" in the same wayI digress - and want to once again give kudos to the translators and editors at JNC - as anyone who subjected themselves to MTL knows - translation/interpretation of a work from Japanese to English is as much an art as it is a 'science'. And the folks at JNC are gifted in this regard. Just about everything I've read I've found enjoyable (and if I eventually dropped a series it was because of the story, not the translation) The fact that so many JNC members enjoy such a wide variety of translated works and discuss story and nuance more than criticizing translation choices is a testament to the skill of the JNC staff
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@taapaye said in May we get light novel translations with honorifics:
I propose asking the translators to just encode both options in the source.
One thing I don't think anyone has brought up yet is that I just don't think this would be nearly as simple an undertaking as it initially sounds. I'm thinking of the dozens of times that names appear in any given part; making sure every one of them is accounted for and that the correct honorific is used (remember that each character won't necessarily be addressed with the same honorific all the time); the additional time and complexity not just for the translator, but for the editors and QA staff making sure everything is correct and accounted for... And then there's the question others have raised of where it stops. -san and -chan might seem simple enough, but when characters refer to "Consort Gyokuyou" in The Apothecary Diaries, would that have to be encoded so it could switch to "Gyokuyou-hi" on command? What about places where a character is being addressed directly, and "Taro-san" has been translated as "you"? (Because in Japanese, it's quite common to use a person's name as a second-person form of address.) I guess I can only speak for myself, but I feel like the hit to my productivity would be unlikely to be worth the gains.
All that is to set aside my philosophical objection to the idea, which in my mind puts honorifics on a pedestal in a way that I'm not sure is conducive to good translation. (The OP says the translations are "very Western," but what they are is translated. Which brings us back to the question of whether it's really not possible to usefully and successfully represent the meaning of honorifics in a target language that doesn't represent those social dynamics in the same way. Which is the question I was allegedly going to leave alone. And a fine job I've done of it, too.)
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@jon-mitchell said in May we get light novel translations with honorifics:
@taapaye
I must admit, I don't notice when honorifics are used well. (kind of like a good haircut doesn't look like you just got a haircut) Can you indicate which titles you find the lack of honorifics have a bad effect on the work?I don't really notice when they're used well; what I notice is when they're replaced badly.
Constructions like 'Young Miss Aisha' are usually disruptive and interrupt the reading flow, just to name one example.
