So I'm a spider, So what?
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Does anyone else feel like the writer has written himself into a corner? The latest volume was nothing but exposition, the writer trying to explain that White wasn't really evil and had a good reason (saving the world) for tormenting Shun and friends, but it came across as sounding kind of desperate. Is he getting backlash for the story's "hero's" coming across as it's villains? They act and think just like the Elves, where the end justifies the means. I really liked the story at first but when Spider-chan pretty much became a God I lost interest. Nothing worse than a boring OP MC, looking at you Overlord, who justifies his evil by saying it's for the greater good. Yeah, Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot all said the same things.
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I disagree, I don't think White is being set up as a "this character is doing evil things for greater good" character because she really isn't doing it for the greater good; she isn't at all interested in saving the world for the greater good, she doing it partially for self-preservation (she doesn't want the planet she is on to die) but mostly because saving the planet is something important to one of the only people she cares about, namely the Demon Lord Ariel. This makes White a more interesting character in my opinion. She never really cared much for the greater good, it just happens to align with her goals sometimes.
She is amoral definitely but I wouldn't really call her good or evil
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Yeah, White's goal has always been her own survival... it's just that over time she's gotten others into her orbit who she also wants to survive. She's become fond enough of Ariel that if Ariel can't be saved, she'd probably say "Well then this world can sit on it and rotate". Same with Sophia and Wrath and, importantly, Ms. Oka — although that last one is because she feels like she owes the teacher a life debt. Ms. Oka saved her life when she was just a little spider, and that's something she's not been able to pay her back for. Stopping the world from being destroyed and letting Ms. Oka live her life would be great... although in order for Ms. Oka's life to truly be saved, she's also got to take out Potimas. So, y'know, side perk of killing Potimas is Ms. Oka's survival.
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@Folker46 - By "Lastest," do you mean Vol. 13 or Vol. 16? I'm guessing 13 since that's the one that's most directly about what she did to Shun?
White is a monster, and always was. Within the first few books, she resolves to live her life in pursuit of her own self satisfaction and pride, and never really changes her mind on that.
Zooming out from White, though, the human nature the author is writing the world through the lens of seems to be that everyone acts in service of their own self satisfaction and pride, but some people pretend otherwise. Dustin, Guli-guli, Shun, Oka, Ariel, and White are all fighting for their own self-serving "greater good" (some more self-serving than others). All of them have their opinions about what's okay to sacrifice and what must be saved, and all of them include their own friends and loved ones in the latter category and other people's in the former.
As for OP God protagonists: Spider, unlike Overlord, at least makes sure that White is never the biggest fish in the lake. When she was a spider, there were dragons for her to be afraid of. When she was an Arachne, there was Ariel for her to be afraid of. When she became a god, there's Guli-guli, Potimas (or his machines), and D for her to be afraid of - and basically all of these characters were introduced within the first volume, or at least before she left the Labyrinth.
There are some parts that feel contrived (like the explanation for why Sophia called White "master" during the attack), but I think that by-and-large the author knew where this story was going from the start, and hasn't written themselves into a corner yet. Certainly not at volume 13, and probably not at volume 16.
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In vol 13 we find out that pretty much everything that has gone wrong in Shun and friend's lives can be traced to White messing with them. Shun is a classic (non-Greek) Hero, he cares about his family and friends, and will do almost anything to protect them. Yet he is of no value as far as the story goes, White's group so overpowers them that they look like jokes, like the author is mocking the readers for even liking him. White was cool at first but now I don't know if I can read this LN anymore, I just get angry when I read it.
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Shun's story is a tragic deconstruction of isekai tropes. He's given a very typical isekai protagonist setup, but all of it is a lie and White tears it to shreds without remorse.
Ironically, White's actually embodying a pretty common JRPG trope herself there, where monsters from completely outside the protagonist's world-view hit early in the game, and the they to learn the truth of the world before they can fight back.
I don't think the author is making fun of anyone for liking Shun, but I do think the author is, on some level, satirizing stories that have heroes like Shun, and the people who write them.
That said, Shun himself is an honest embodiment of the heroes he represents. Some spoilers, but I'll keep them vague (drawn from the WN, which is more or less at about the same place as Vol 16 AFAICT - but the stories are different in other ways so this may not end up being how the published version goes).
White is not going to stop being the villain. If your enjoyment of the series comes from hoping that White is going to grow as a human and stop being a monster, nope, you'd be better off dropping it. I can even relate. I stopped watching Lelouch of the Rebellion about halfway through, too because the protagonist went full bad-guy and I wasn't in the mood for it.
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@folker46 If you were shocked by that in LN13, you weren't paying enough attention earlier. Shun's power level being low compared to White's has been clear since the early parts of the series. Hugo working with White and Friends is something that could be picked up on about as soon as you find out who Sophia is.
As for Shun himself... his biggest failings are not that he's a bad person (he's a little dense, but his heart seems to be very much in the right place), but rather that he holds a rather dangerous combination of naivety and trust; We see the first hints of this all that way back in the adventuring school, where Shun basically refuses to question Oka, her motives, or the information she hands over. We even get the contrast with the rather less trusting Katia, to hammer that point home.
What follows then is an extended tragedy that ultimately stems from two factors: Shun can't (or won't) dig beneath anyone's surface appearance (which is why he picks up on Hugo's hostility and the threat of Ariel/White, but completely misses how dangerous Potimas and the Elves are), and his proximity to the elves (via Oka) keeps him from learning the truth of the setting (since he's reliant on information sourced from Oka, who's getting it from Potimas...)
Even when it comes to Hugo's actions, White doesn't really seem to have been doing it to mess with Shun - she's dismantling Potimas' influence network in human lands, and Shun's less a target of hers than a distraction she can't just up and kill because it'd upset Oka, and not upsetting Oka is one of her few actual motivations for doing anything...
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Based on all the little details that surface everytime I reread the series, I think the author knows exactly where their story is going.
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@kurzaa said in So I'm a spider, So what?:
Based on all the little details that surface everytime I reread the series, I think the author knows exactly where their story is going.
Yes, it's definitely one where you re-read and go "ah, now that makes sense."
I've never gotten the sense that it was like Hollywood TV where they really are making up later seasons as they go. It's always felt like it was following a long-term plan to loop back to the first volumes and then move forward.
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Others have responded better than I could have regarding Spider. I think it's pretty clear that White is not a good guy, and is doing some genuinely terrible things to achieve her goals. I wonder if maybe you aren't bringing your own baggage (i.e. the expectation that the protagonist should be a good guy) into this story.
That said, I will agree - as someone who hasn't read the WN and doesn't know where the story is going - that the last two or three novels have been frustrating. I keep waiting for the resolution with Shun but it's been three novels of of backstory (even a whole novel wasted on a dead hero who I didn't care much about in the first place!). The latest novel seems to contain pages of White "Umm"ing and "hmm"ing and second-guessing and third-guessing everything she says, does, or thinks. I haven't fully settled on how I feel about that. A reread might make it more acceptable, but right now it just feels like it's getting in the way of the plot.
I actually wouldn't have minded seeing more of Sophia's backstory, but instead it just skipped through her school years in a few pages.
@folker46 said in So I'm a spider, So what?:
Nothing worse than a boring OP MC, looking at you Overlord, who justifies his evil by saying it's for the greater good
But I'm really more interested in what your problem with Overlord is. At no point does Ainz try to justify his actions as being for the greater good. The suffering and death caused by Nazarick in The Holy Kingdom and in Re-Estize are truly gut-wrenchingly deplorable. The amazing trick the author pulls off is in somehow getting us to care about and to root-for Nazarick nevertheless.
Moreover, far from being boringly OP, I find that Ainz's position in each new novel feels more and more precarious. Albedo and Demiurge are both clearly much smarter than he is. It's a genuine source of anxiety (for me and also for Ainz) whether he can keep pulling off the all-powerful Overlord con. All of the floor guardians are about as strong as he is, so if there were ever a revolt it's not clear that he would come out of it unscathed. Finally, the latest book introduced us to at least one dragon who may be strong enough to kill fully powered-up players. I find myself waiting for the next few novels genuinely concerned for Nazarick's long-term prospects.
EDIT: Oh! And I forgot to mention that Nazarick is clearly stretching itself thin. They don't have many allies and most of their relationships are transactional (i.e. look at how much benefit you gain by being our ally). So they have a few powerful individuals and a limited number of summons who are trying to carry on the burden of running a whole economy. The last book really gave me the impression that the whole system (including Ainz's sanity) was reaching a breaking point.
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You should read the wn,
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@poisonedbite So what you're saying is, it's entirely possible — and, in fact, probable — that the LN has not only diverged in details, but also in plot, from the WN?
My grasp on sanity remains absolute.
Oh, right, the poison, the poison for Kuzco, the poison chosen especially to kill Kuzco, Kuzco's poison. ...That poison?
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@poisonedbite - Having now caught up on the WN (I'd not known that the last chapters had been posted)... I kind of agree with this, but kind-of don't.
I really hope that in the published version, they rely on White's perspective less in the final battle.
Spoilers to follow (I'll still try to keep things vague and try to avoid spoiling anything about the plot, but I it will have some spoilers about the mechanical construction and pacing)
That aside, I have no objections with the plot itself, just its presentation. Looking forward to the English adaptation of LN and hoping it's better constructed.
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@thegrimlich Well Shield Hero went in a different direction that the wn did, thank God, so Spider might as well. But from what I'm hearing I might as well dump the series, Spider-san is just not interesting anymore and dismantling the Hero trope has become pretty standard now in LNs anyway and it's not something I'm interested in reading. Too bad, it started so good but has now gone down the toilet.
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Two points:
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Those of you who talked about the end of the WN please put your comments on the final battle under spoilers; some prefer not to know such things so we can read the LN with fresh eyes
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I believe that author has written in the afterword about how huge chunks of the story were rewritten from the WN, such as the section with the ice dragon in the Mystic Mountains. Therefore, it could be that the end is significantly different from what it is in the WN
“There’s always a story. It’s all stories, really. The sun coming up every day is a story. Everything’s got a story in it. Change the story, change the world.” ― Terry Pratchett, A Hat Full of Sky
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@lily-garden said in So I'm a spider, So what?:
Two points:
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Those of you who talked about the end of the WN please put your comments on the final battle under spoilers; some prefer not to know such things so we can read the LN with fresh eyes
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I believe that author has written in the afterword about how huge chunks of the story were rewritten from the WN, such as the section with the ice dragon in the Mystic Mountains. Therefore, it could be that the end is significantly different from what it is in the WN
@thegrimlich said in So I'm a spider, So what?:
@poisonedbite So what you're saying is, it's entirely possible — and, in fact, probable — that the LN has not only diverged in details, but also in plot, from the WN?
Let me help you out here. Everything after the Araba fight is different. Like, alternate universe/different timeline different. You get the same major plot points but that's about it. They're basically different stories and should both be read.
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