Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.

Baka_Neko

@pinkgrapefruit22 oh are you saying that roz isn't bi you know that is bi erasure right? /jk
All jokes aside until her heart goes doki for someone I will continue to believe roz is booksexual

Windsagio

This discussion made me think of an obsession I had a while ago -- tagging LN's

Isekai/Non Isekai
OP protagonist/Stealth OP protagonist/Weak protagonist
etc.

I had a whole ton of categories and tags, most of which I've sadly forgotten now.

Edit: So say Smartphone is an "OP Isekai harem Fantasy" where bookworm is a "Weak Isekai themed Fantasy" etc

Edit2: I just remembered, there was of course also "reverse Isekai"

kuali

@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

You're probably right that same-sex relationships are underrepresented in Japanese media. I really can't think of a single instance myself in any of the LNs that I follow, which does seem unrealistic. That said, I sometimes feel like same-sex relationships are over-represented in modern Western media. Consider that, even in a large cast, only a handful of characters will ever get enough screen-time for us to learn anything substantial about their love lives. There are good odds that a randomly sampled group of 5-10 individuals won't include any in a same-sex relationship.

It was an interesting question, so I looked some figures up: The UK's Office of National Statistics publishes annual figures on sexual orientation in the UK. The last figures (data collected in 2020, published this year) say the British Population is:
93.6% Heterosexual
3.1% Lesbian, Gay or Bisexual
3.3% Other or Refused to Answer

That said, the numbers for LGB people are higher in typical Japanese Protagonist ages - ~8% of 16-24 year olds.

@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

But speaking of Bookworm, and sexuality, and things that once seen can never be unseen ... I've noted separately in the Bookworm forums how odd it is that grey-priests aren't producing little priestlets left-and-right. There's just no way you could convince me that hundreds of hormonal teenagers cooped up together all day won't get up to any hanky panky. Personally, since I have no interest in teenage relationship drama, it's an aspect of the society that I'm happy the author chose not to explore... but nevertheless I can't help to notice it every once in a while by its deafening absence.

Ultimately, I think the in-universe reason for that is pretty simple - before Rozemyne took over, Bezewanst was having all the pregnant grey shrine maidens killed. Those that survived either have some kind of working contraceptive... no interest in the opposite gender... or are just too scared of the consequences to fool around without a Blue Priest being involved...

Windsagio

@kuali Also, priests are priests. At least one Blue Shrine maiden got exiled for getting too frisky (or more likely pregnant), so it's extremely likely that sex is officially forbidden but the rule is ignored by the blue priests.

The Grey priests on the other hand are much more directly monastic and don't have any noble upbringing so they're closer to the rules.

KopiCAT

@Rahul-Balaggan said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

Every single fighting scene, in any Light Novel.

Just a personal thing, but no matter what LN it has been, any fighting scene with actual details on the fight are not my cup of tea.

I enjoy scenes like, “and then I beat them to a pulp” or, “and then they beat me to a pulp”.

I agree fully with this. I just can't get into action scenes in the written form. I skim or skip all of them. Especially the fighting ones. They belong on the screen.

unknownmat

@kuali said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

93.6% Heterosexual
3.1% Lesbian, Gay or Bisexual
3.3% Other or Refused to Answer

Yeah, this corresponds to the numbers that I found. I will say to that - as an older person - it's just not something that comes up day-to-day in my experience. Mostly people's private lives are kept private and I have almost no idea who identifies as what. I guess this is why I don't find the omission from Japanese LNs to be all that glaring, and why seeing it mentioned so often in Western media feels excessive. Of course, this is only for non-protagonist characters who just aren't fleshed-out all that much. For protagonist characters, it does seem like we really ought to see a few more same-sex relationships. Roughly three or four out of every 100 series ought to have an LGBT protagonist, but the number seems to be way lower than that.

Ultimately, I think the in-universe reason for that is pretty simple - before Rozemyne took over, Bezewanst was having all the pregnant grey shrine maidens killed. Those that survived either have some kind of working contraceptive... no interest in the opposite gender... or are just too scared of the consequences to fool around without a Blue Priest being involved...

I guess the only way to know would be to ask the author, but to me this feels like a retroactive justification (like trying to justify the "kessel run in 12 parsecs" line as being anything other than an error). My strong suspicion is that the author just didn't want to deal with it. And this isn't without precedent - she admitted in one of the fanbooks that the dearth of incoming orphans during Myne's tenure wasn't realistic, but was just not something she wanted to focus on.

KopiCAT

@salientmind said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

@waterdweller this is actually very relevant, because in addition to sleeping together, all these harems live together.

Anyone whose had multiple roommates can tell you that maintaining a group environment without emotions/sex is difficult. Meanwhile Souma has a bunch of wives. Most of these harem series rely on an very competent "first wife" to effortlessly manage the rest.

There is a reason why an Empress was often considered the leader of the Harem. But seriously, these fictional harems are just so darn 'nice' it becomes too unrealistic. And any time any of them show signs of really wanting to rise to the forefront, it's almost depicted as evil behavior.

But what I dislike most about Harems is the fact that none of the ladies ever really goes against decisions made by the MC. It's like they are one and all just a bunch of 'yes girls'.

MC: "I wanna do this!"
Harem: "Yes my lord"
MC: "I wanna do that!"
Harem: "Yes my lord"

It's like they have zero agency other then to just support the MC in whatever he does.

KopiCAT

First of all, I'll apologize for going off topic, and with a rather sensitive one as well. Feel free to delete it if it's too much, moderators.

But this really bugs me.

@RozemyneKamil1 said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

@piisfun

Oh I’ll just add the lack of proper gender representation in like every series. Seriously, pick any drawn crowd scene count the female to make heads, I often do, and you’ll start wondering if females are endangered.

Let’s not get started on the comments section on many sites that immediately hate any new women walking on screen, I try not to read the comments section on many sites because of this.

Also happy international womens day

Lack of gender representation? Seriously? Most novels have like at best 2 guys and a gazilion women. And you think women seems to be endangered? I'd say in most novels, it's MEN/GUYS/BOYS that are endangered. Not the women.

Now if we are talking about female LEADS, then you might have an argument there. But that's simply because at the end of the day, there are realistically more men that read these types of novels then there are women. And so the target demographic is more often then not males. So they would want to appeal to what most guys want to read about, and that's guys(so they can sometimes maybe self insert) going around being awesome.

KopiCAT

@RobD Never liked Log Horizon too much, because it used the 'legal' Loli as the main love interest. That's a hard pass for me 90% of the time. Worst of all, her body wasn't just an avatar, it was her irl look.

Though I will admit I never got further then when he went to raid that dungeon that basically held all the game's currency. So that they could once and for all fix their money issues.

If only that secretary of that friendly guild of theirs had been the main love interest instead, it would have been a 10 out of 10. You know, the one where his tank friend will obviously end up dating the guild master.

HarmlessDave

@KopiCAT said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

First of all, I'll apologize for going off topic, and with a rather sensitive one as well. Feel free to delete it if it's too much, moderators.

But this really bugs me.

@RozemyneKamil1 said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

@piisfun

Oh I’ll just add the lack of proper gender representation in like every series. Seriously, pick any drawn crowd scene count the female to make heads, I often do, and you’ll start wondering if females are endangered.

Let’s not get started on the comments section on many sites that immediately hate any new women walking on screen, I try not to read the comments section on many sites because of this.

Also happy international womens day

Lack of gender representation? Seriously? Most novels have like at best 2 guys and a gazilion women. And you think women seems to be endangered? I'd say in most novels, it's MEN/GUYS/BOYS that are endangered. Not the women.

Now if we are talking about female LEADS, then you might have an argument there. But that's simply because at the end of the day, there are realistically more men that read these types of novels then there are women. And so the target demographic is more often then not males. So they would want to appeal to what most guys want to read about, and that's guys(so they can sometimes maybe self insert) going around being awesome.

True, it's a bit like being annoyed at the lack of male leads in shoujo and otome game villainess novels.

Male action power fantasy LNs tend to have male MCs and a female harem, female romance power fantasy LNs tend to have a female MC with a male harem.

Both genres have rare exceptions, and there are LNs that don't fit into either box.

KopiCAT

This post is deleted!

the green death

@pinkgrapefruit22 Yes I’ve definitely noticed that too. Reading Outbreak Company right now and happy to see it different there. Gaius’ sexuality is treated a little like a punchline but it’s not treated like more of a punchline than most the other characters’ defining traits, so I overall see it as a win.

endoftheline

@KopiCAT said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

But what I dislike most about Harems is the fact that none of the ladies ever really goes against decisions made by the MC. It's like they are one and all just a bunch of 'yes girls'.

MC: "I wanna do this!"
Harem: "Yes my lord"
MC: "I wanna do that!"
Harem: "Yes my lord"

It's like they have zero agency other then to just support the MC in whatever he does.

That seems like the logical conclusion given that most of the time they don't actually have any meaningful personality. Or brain for that matter, otherwise they never would've joined the harem in the first place. Love(?) makes people stupid; or so the saying goes.

To me the really annoying bit is when the entire harem has to chime in on something and the author writes it on autopilot. It results in a page or two of padding, just the same thing repeated over and over with only the difference in verbal tic. It's a missed opportunity to give the members distinct personalities by them presenting the statement from their own point-of-view. And while at the core it's still rehashing the same statement, the differences help keep the characters from becoming an indistinct blob of forced author intent.

Even something as simple as "'I can't see how anything I say will make a difference,' Tsundere-chan huffed" can really help break up the monotony of a sequence of positive affirmations simply by being a negative affirmation that indicates even if Tsundere-chan is allowing MC to do what they want there's still a personal exasperation in that agreement.

Another good example is the idiot brigade in Trapped in a Dating Sim where they get into a round of positive affirmation harem commentary, but Maries usually horrified negative reactions are interspersed with the commentary keep it from getting stale by introducing distance to the comments. Alternatively, the idiot brigade starts playing off each other's affirmation into a new round of positive affirmation on a tangentially related topic keeping the round-robin commentary fresh.

HarmlessDave

@endoftheline said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

Another good example is the idiot brigade in Trapped in a Dating Sim where they get into a round of positive affirmation harem commentary, but Maries usually horrified negative reactions are interspersed with the commentary keep it from getting stale by introducing distance to the comments. Alternatively, the idiot brigade starts playing off each other's affirmation into a new round of positive affirmation on a tangentially related topic keeping the round-robin commentary fresh.

That has been amusing, seeing just what idiocy her reverse harem will talk themselves into doing this time trying to please her. They're like kids digging up her garden to bring her flowers.

Windsagio

@HarmlessDave I admit, I have to love what that series did with Marie specifically. She's easily my favorite character in the series and I love how the author got over his "I hate sisters" fetish in continued characterization.

... At least in that series. Then in the next one he hates sisters again.

In fairness, the sister trope just doesn't work for me, or I'd suspect for most westerners.

Folker46

@TopChop12 There have been a few that are sort of isekai but not really, The Lost Fleet is a good one, the first six books are pretty good. It's not so much an isekai but more of a man out of his time, he remembers what everyone else has forgotten.

Folker46

@KopiCAT You get that with Mushoku Tensei a lot, the girls have defined roles in the household but in the end do whatever Rudy wants. It's even hinted that yuri stuff happens because Rudy wants to watch Sylphy and Roxy play with each other, even though they have no interest in doing so otherwise. Eris is prob the only exception, he can't get her to do anything except with him because she takes over during sex and doesn't want to share.

You can argue that medieval societies would raise their daughters to be submissive and obedient to their husbands, and that a woman should hold on to a powerful man no matter what. Why the trope of a young girl being repulsed by a fat husband is so dumb, to people who don't get enough food a fat man means he eats well, so a woman would find him very attractive. In a society where harems are the norm, why should it be surprising to find the girls ok with it?

Problems show up in Harems when everyone gets older, the girls get fat from age and childbirth, and the husband brings in a young girl to add to the harem. Of course, the older wives are upset because they know they are being replaced and won't be nice to the new girl. At least in anime this is presented as a dick move by the man and makes him out to be a selfish ass. I see Rudy doing this eventually, he's just that selfish.

Carltrue

@Folker46
Except Roxy and silphy are not human and don't age the same so only eris will get older. I don't think eris will ever be replaced.

Folker46

@Carltrue That is one of the tragedies of some harem stories. Rudy and Eris have maybe 70 years left, Roxy has 150, and Sylphy has an unknow amount but prob centuries, just like her grandma. In the end, Sylphy will be the only one left and will prob start adventuring, maybe even falling in love again but otherwise leaving Rudy and the rest in the past.

Anytime I see an Elf in a love situation with a human I feel kind of sad for them.

But this might be easy for an Elf, they may see it like owning a dog, you know you will outlive them, so you try to love and play with them as much as you can. I always thought that was why Elves are considered stand-off-ish when relating to other races, they don't want to get attached to someone only to watch them grow old and die while they stay young. I can see that starting to suck after a while.

pcj

@Folker46 the Magical Revolution anime that just started is going to wind up dealing with this topic if it follows the novels. We should find out who one of the people in question is within the next few episodes, the other two will be around episode 10 or 11 or thereabouts.