A New Type Of Self-Insert Wish Fulfillment
-
I've recently caught up with Reincarnated as a Sword and, as with my other perennial favorite Death March, I find myself liking that series way more than I can justify on its literary merits alone.
Many light novel series are targeted at young men, and so their nondescript MCs will often be heros of justice who are the strongest, surrounded by cute girls, admired by all, etc. It's such a tired trope that it doesn't even merit an eye roll anymore.
Of course, I'm too savvy and worldly to fall for such naked pandering... Or so I thought.
I've come to believe that stories like Reincarnated as a Sword represent a different kind of self-insertion. Namely the self-insert parent/guardian/big brother. Actually raising kids is messy and often frustrating. Younger siblings can be annoying and clingy. But MCs like Fran are hard-working, diligent, eager for guidance, and always appreciative of the protagonist's sage advice. Following her on her journey is a bit like raising a Tomogochi but without having to remember to flush its excrement. Reading stories like Reincarnated as a Sword and Death March can be just as satisfying as, say, teaching a younger sibling to shoot a basketball, but without all the time and energy consuming failure that comes before the first success.
What do you guys think? Agree? Disagree?
Also, any other example come so mind? You know, just for the sake of discussion. ahem
-
Yes, and there are many other novels about MCs acquiring children by magic, prayer, harvesting orphans, etc. without the author needing to write about messy adult relationships.
Instant kids, no fuss.
Some of them are fun, like Death March's Satou raising his wards into unstoppable demon slayers while feeding them tasty food and sightseeing, or Dragon Daddy Diaries where both Olivia and Mr. Dragon are cute and wholesome.
-
There are also the series where the protagonist instead of and harem gets cute and fluffy pets. Not everything has to focus on romance and of there is a market for different kinds of whish fullfillment it's right for authors and publishers to cater to it.
Personally I don't like kids, so I'm still in the faction that would be surrounded by beatiful girls rather than being a father or a mentor.
Another trend I noticed is the slow life isekai, that makes me think of how shitty must be the average working conditions in Japan if people now dream of going to another world to laze around. -
You sure about that?
Those series are rather known for having overpowered protagonist over everything, rather than having a guardian type of story.
And the number of of other examples are far too many. Whether you have Kuma Kuma Kuma Bear, Invaders of the Rokujouma!? etc. etc. pp.
FUNA too is rather repeating that trope, wheras the protagonist focus on always giving orphans preferential treatments and therefore "growing a followship".
Even the "cool" stuff like I’m the Evil Lord of an Intergalactic Empire! have such branching out side stories.
Probably Reborn as a Space Mercenary: I Woke Up Piloting the Strongest Starship! comes close to Death March's storytelling style. Personally I am not that fond of Reincarnated as a Sword or Death March to the Parallel World Rhapsody...
But stories where such relationships bloom I can think of ~ yep. Too many. The "trinity" of isekaied-overpowered-harem is strong in the light novel world after all...
Check out the titles mentioned above and maybe also Full Clearing Another World under a Goddess with Zero Believers. If it has to be something like the character is accompaning something as object there is the one with the vending machine and reincarnated as apple...
-
@HarmlessDave said in A New Type Of Self-Insert Wish Fulfillment:
Dragon Daddy Diaries
Oh good call, I'd forgotten about this one. There's also The Skull Dragon's Precious Daughter.
I think you're absolutely right that at least part of the appeal of both these series is the vicarious thrill of guiding a youngster. This is exactly the kind of story I had in mind.
Yes, and there are many other novels about MCs acquiring children ...
Can you think of any others?
There's something like Leadale where the protagonist takes on guardianship of a small child. But rather than being escapist self-insertion, this one actively upset me. The MC is still a middle schooler - and she's written to be fairly immature - and so her role feels more like Peter Pan than Taylor Greer. For a story to count as successful parenting wish fulfillment, I think the character must demonstrate a certain degree of maturity and wisdom.
-
@Lex said in A New Type Of Self-Insert Wish Fulfillment:
Not everything has to focus on romance and of there is a market for different kinds of whish fullfillment it's right for authors and publishers to cater to it.
I like this take. LN criticism, in my experience, tends to focus heavily on casting aspersions on the middle school boy power fantasy. And in fairness, such stories make up a large part of published LNs. I've thus been slow to consider other ways a story might be written to pander to different audiences. I think you're right that there are probably as many opportunities for wish-fulfillment sub-genres as there are readers.
-
@Serah said in A New Type Of Self-Insert Wish Fulfillment:
You sure about that?
Not at all. It was just a stray thought that I had and thought it might be a fun discussion topic.
Those series are rather known for having overpowered protagonist over everything, rather than having a guardian type of story.
I only recently finished Reincarnated as a Sword. But I discuss Death March frequently in these forums, particularly about it's unexpectedly enduring appeal to me.
I can name dozens of other OP MC stories that do almost nothing for me - Slime, Smartphone, Abilities Average, Leadale, etc, etc, etc. Somehow, years later, Death March continues to stand above ostensibly similar stories that have come and gone. I'm forever trying to understand why this is.
So it's true that both stores represent OP MCs. But I don't think that alone captures their appeal to me.
And the number of of other examples are far too many. Whether you have Kuma Kuma Kuma Bear, Invaders of the Rokujouma!? etc. etc. pp.
I'm not familiar with Kuma Bear or Rokujouma (I'm too intimidated by the latter's volume count, not to mention I hated the first episode of the anime - although I've been assured that it gets better after volume 7 or so).
What about these series are you trying to point out? Are you recommending them?
FUNA too is rather repeating that trope, wheras the protagonist focus on always giving orphans preferential treatments and therefore "growing a followship".
I've tried Potions, 10,000 Gold, and Abilities Average. Of those I've gotten the farthest in the latter. I could agree that it maybe represents a sort of fellowship wish-fulfillment, but I don't think really counts as guardianship.
Personally I am not that fond of Reincarnated as a Sword or Death March to the Parallel World Rhapsody...
Yeah, I don't claim Death March is great literature. And I remember your forum post about how bored you are of certain tropes, so it doesn't surprise me at all that you aren't fond of Death March or Sword. Honestly speaking, even I can't understand why I like them as much as I do.
But stories where such relationships bloom I can think of ~ yep. Too many. The "trinity" of isekaied-overpowered-harem is strong in the light novel world after all...
FWIW, I can't stand harems (aside: I don't consider Death March to be a harem story, but would understand if you don't agree). In fact the trinity you mention is the very essence of what I call the middle school boy power fantasy, and what I'm trying to draw a contrast with.
Death March aside, would you agree that Sword doesn't fit in that same mold?
Probably Reborn as a Space Mercenary: I Woke Up Piloting the Strongest Starship! comes close to Death March's storytelling style. ... also Full Clearing Another World under a Goddess with Zero Believers... vending machine and reincarnated as apple...
Appreciate the suggestions. I'll definitely keep them in mind.
-
@unknownmat not exactly recommendations. More like trying to find a baseline to give you recommendations.
The titles you started with, to be precise Reincarnated as a Sword and Death March to the Parallel World Rhapsody, but also the others you just mentioned in your reply
That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime
In Another World With My Smartphone
Didn't I Say to Make My Abilities Average in the Next Life?!Is more or less what I personally consider "1st gen * mainstream series"
Just to give it a name, as I have personally the impression it is like Dragon Ball, Naruto, One Piece ~ more or less the first things people in the west got in touch with those series regardless of quality.
In the same category I would also consider for example
The Rising of the Shield Hero e.g.
My impression is: if there is no anime about it, people know much less about a series which is often -in my personal opinion- better than those "1st gen * mainstream".
I digress a little here, but it is intended to clarify my angle of perspective.
So basically I wonder if it is just a coincidence there with the "1st gen * mainstream stuff I do not consider that great" or if there is more to the guardian / big brother/big sister figure interest.
After all we also have some outlier like The World's Strongest Rearguard or Enough with This Slow Life! I Was Reincarnated as a High Elf and Now I’m Bored which might fill better the guardian character protagonist.
I also can understand it perfectly, why anyone would be intimidated by the sheer number of volumes regarding Invaders of the Rokujouma!? or other series which develope over time. And yeah, I hate the anime. It just came to my mind since the protagonist is treating their harem less like a harem and more like the "big bro" character you might have in mind.
By the end of the day I am thinking that you like those series because of the relationships which I can relate to. That was always the best about Reincarnated as a Sword and Death March to the Parallel World Rhapsody. Less that the protagonist is an animated object and more that the people are looking up to them and everything/everyone seems to blossom around them.
Which brings me to a more important question: what is your take on How a Realist Hero Rebuilt the Kingdom?
-
@Serah said in A New Type Of Self-Insert Wish Fulfillment:
My impression is: if there is no anime about it, people know much less about a series which is often -in my personal opinion- better than those "1st gen * mainstream".
That's fair. Something ~80% of series that I read are ones that I found through an anime. I usually require a "hook" to get me started in any series. Reaching the end of an anime and wanting to know what happens next is the most common and effective hook for me.
And, indeed, I liked the Death March anime a lot more than I can explain, given its many glaring flaws. Somehow it stood out enough to me that I found myself wanting to continue adventuring with Satou and friends. This was decidedly not the case with Smartphone, as a counter-example, where I could barely finish the anime.
Incidentally, and perhaps ironically, I don't like Naruto or One Piece or Dragon Ball. I've never been able to get very far in those series. I don't even know why. I just find them boring.
It just came to my mind since the protagonist is treating their harem less like a harem and more like the "big bro" character you might have in mind.
Hmm. This may be the single most convincing argument for Rokujouma that I've heard yet.
... you like those series because of the relationships which I can relate to... that the people are looking up to them and everything/everyone seems to blossom around them.
That's reasonable. You're absolutely right that one of the things shared by both Death March and Sword is that every area they leave is at least a little better off than it would have been without them. In that sense, they are both very uplifting and positive series. Although I think that's true for other series as well - Abilities Average, for example - so that may not be what really sets them apart for me.
-
@Serah said in A New Type Of Self-Insert Wish Fulfillment:
Which brings me to a more important question: what is your take on How a Realist Hero Rebuilt the Kingdom?
Oops, I missed the most important part.
I really wanted to like Realist Hero. I'm generally a fan of that kind of rags-to-riches-slowly-improving-your-situation-through-diligence-and-clean-living kind of story. Incidentally, this was how Bookworm first appealed to me - I was hooked on that story after just two anime episodes.
Unfortunately, I got three episodes into Realist Hero, and had to stop it. It's been a while, but as I recall the story made a big deal about how he chose some key people with rare skills. But I found both the people he chose as well as his criteria for choosing them to be so asinine that it completely broke my willing suspension of disbelief. I thought his entire strategy was naive and unworkable. I had to stop watching and haven't even attempted to get back into that series.
-
@unknownmat How a Realist Hero Rebuilt the Kingdom also excels with the relationships, and personally I think the first volume is incredible impactful when it comes to present the protagonist as someone who creates great relationship and people looking up to him.
Less humourful than Pens Down, Swords Up: Throw Your Studies to the Wind, but more the : "wow, reading this gives me a great mood and I feel also wiser"
The scene which hooked me from volume 1 is also depicted greatly in the manga, if you want to give it a look. It is not that great in the anime, which makes me unhappy about it because I love the series.
When it comes to pure mood uplifting my favourite I also recommend is I Got Caught Up in a Hero Summons, but the Other World Was at Peace! Just stay away from the manga with its bad translation. I think as long as it is not officially licensed you can even use the fan translation, which is using the web novel as basis, I think. https://www.foxaholic.com/novel/i-was-caught-up-in-a-hero-summoning-but-that-world-is-at-peace/1/
There is no other light novel I consider more uplifting when it comes to happiness. Might be boring, but the best regarding the mood.
I am trying to think of other examples where there is a "big bro" situation, with a switch of perspective between characters. But some series have quite "fluid" transitions. And I do not think something like Do You Love Your Mom and Her Two-Hit Multi-Target Attacks? is what you are looking for. Neither Three Cheats from Three Goddesses: The Broke Baron’s Youngest Wants a Relaxing Life or Knock Yourself Out! The Goddess Beat the Final Boss in the Tutorial, So Now I'm Free to Do Whatever which have such a "big brother/big sister" relationship.
-
@unknownmat I blame the anime for that.
In the book and the manga I love that scene.
Mainly because of the convention-breaking-behaviour, where he proclaims that nothing matters as long as one has a talent which makes them special.
And the surprise with Panacotta, that someone who knows what else to eat when there is too little available to eat becomes someone important is a rather stunning decision to me. In one swoop the protagonist not only found a key figure to tackle with the most troublesome issue of the kingdom, but also motivates the whole nation.
And then again: I am unhappy how it is depicted in the anime.
The Great Cleric is also one where I think the relationships is great, and its adventure stories is -in my personal opinion- one of the best. But such a "master/apprentice" /"big bro/big sis" kind of stuff might be missing again... Hm...
Maybe The Greatest Magicmaster's Retirement Plan? No... but The Magic in this Other World is Too Far Behind! A little.
-
@Serah said in A New Type Of Self-Insert Wish Fulfillment:
Thanks. These are all great suggestions. I'll have to let you know whether any of these wind up in my strike zone.
... I think the first volume is incredible impactful
Noted. With such a strong recommendation, I may just force myself through that one scene and see if it grows on me.
Less humourful than Pens Down, Swords Up: Throw Your Studies to the Wind, but more the : "wow, reading this gives me a great mood and I feel also wiser"
Haha. You are a veritable encyclopedia of light novels. It's amusing how allusion heavy your responses are.
Do You Love Your Mom and Her Two-Hit Multi-Target Attacks?
Now this is an interesting one because it seems similar to what I'm seeking, but does nothing at all for me.
Disclaimer I've only watched the anime for this one. I think it is 180 degrees backwards from what I'm looking for. This series is more about the love of a mother (from the kid's perspective), or the understanding of a child (from the mother's perspective). Neither of which particularly appeal to me.
Maybe The Greatest Magicmaster's Retirement Plan?
I like Magicmaster but it doesn't feel the same to me as Death March. I see it more as a redemption / coming-of-age story than as a big-brother story.
-
@unknownmat said in A New Type Of Self-Insert Wish Fulfillment:
And, indeed, I liked the Death March anime a lot more than I can explain, given its many glaring flaws. Somehow it stood out enough to me that I found myself wanting to continue adventuring with Satou and friends. This was decidedly not the case with Smartphone, as a counter-example, where I could barely finish the anime.
I think for me, while the series really is about an OP MC. I don't really considere it a power-fantasy-wish-fulfillment story, since it's awful at that kind of story. While it's true that like other PFWF stories with OP MCs it lacks any stakes, it lacks stakes similarly to Non Non Byori lacking stakes. Since the MC is so abnormally and unrealistically overpowered, the story is more about how he drifts through the world trying to hide his OPness in a world that keeps trying to get him to reveal it. Oh, and Arisa tearing her hair out whenever he proudly shows off his failures (well, figuratively anyway).
-
@unknownmat thought so.
What I got from your replies and examples goes more towards a team/two-heroes interactions together, like what I know from The Rising of the Shield Hero.
With Death March to the Parallel World Rhapsody I always have that image of the hero going out on adventure with his family. The closest to that and Reincarnated as a Sword are manifold.
Some are better in regards with the "adventure with family" thing, others are better with "master-apprentice" thing. But rarely it goes like with Reincarnated as a Sword where the master-apprentice connection is basically like them becoming one person in the process of hero wielding sword and sword wielded by the hero.
The family going for adventure sort of thing is best in How a Realist Hero Rebuilt the Kingdom and also Invaders of the Rokujouma!?, both centering around an important protagonist, but only together they are really awesome. At least that is the impression I got that you are after something like that.
The protagonist in The Diary of a Middle-Aged Sage's Carefree Life in Another World or From Old Country Bumpkin to Master Swordsman: My Hotshot Disciples Are All Grown Up Now, and They Won’t Leave Me Alone have also apprentices, but it does not feel like what you are looking for.
Did you try Higehiro: After Being Rejected, I Shaved and Took in a High School Runaway? There is also a manga of that available if I recall right.
-
@Serah said in A New Type Of Self-Insert Wish Fulfillment:
What I got from your replies and examples goes more towards a team/two-heroes interactions together
Completely reasonable. I appreciate the suggestions.
Did you try Higehiro: After Being Rejected, I Shaved and Took in a High School Runaway? There is also a manga of that available if I recall right.
Wow. Another surprising connection.
You know, I actually really liked this show and I feel guilty about it. I get the sense that any middle-aged guy who admits to liking this series will be accused of secretly desiring an underage live-in lover.
But you're absolutely right. The appeal of Higehiro is surprisingly similar to Sword and Death March. The protagonist is able to take someone who is broken and on the verge of hitting rock bottom, and eventually nurture her back to health. I like that he rejects ever overture she makes towards him. And while the story is improbable and probably wildly illegal, there's something deeply human about the connection they are able to forge.
-
@unknownmat I have never seen that series like - I mean the legal perspective thing.
At that point it was questionable, weird at worst, but also so humane. Two broken souls who helped each other overcoming their worst situation in their life.
The humane story also made it quite special/strong, and the interactions do remind me of a brother-sister relationship.
That reminds me of two other good anime shows which have less to do with the "big bro"-vibe but also very human and touching: ReLIFE and Net-juu no Susume.
-
@endoftheline said in A New Type Of Self-Insert Wish Fulfillment:
I think for me, while the series really is about an OP MC. I don't really considere it a power-fantasy-wish-fulfillment story, since it's awful at that kind of story.
I agree with this, actually. I think the OP powers in this case given the protagonist the ability to take a leisurely stroll through a dangerous world. It completely shifts the focus of the story from survival to a fun vacation trip, but is otherwise mostly irrelevant. And I like that he hides his abilities, because it means that he approaches every situation as an underdog. He doesn't seek acclaim and so it's never part of his story.
I've spent a lot of time thinking about and discussing Death March since it is such an unexpected outlier for me. I've come to the conclusion that the series is sort of deceptively mediocre. Like, it seemingly goes out of its way to earn a C, but accidentally somehow scores a B- instead. This makes it much better than one has any right to expect it to be, while still being below the truly outstanding works.
-
hmm. some that may work for you off the top of my head (that I don't think have been mentioned yet):
No Wife, No Problem: A Mage's Life with His Beloved Daughter - The MC pays the church to get his own child to raise.Take These Talents Elsewhere: A Delightful Demotion to the Countryside - MC takes in a teenage girl to raise as his daughter. So far, she may have a crush on her adoptive dad, but he only sees her like a daughter.
Long Story Short, I’m Living in the Mountains - Not a power fantasy, but the MC raises some very unusual chickens. more a 'slow life' takes work story.
The Countess Is a Coward No More! This Reincarnated Witch Just Wants a Break - not really a power fantasy, though the skill and knowledge the female MC could make her one if she has the right backup. She starts the book in a political marriage with an adoptive son. It has a lot of hi-jinks (and can get silly), but does involve her trying to help raise and teach the kids.
The Eternal Fool's Words of Wisdom: A Pawsitively Fantastic Adventure - manga, and the relationship is more mentor and student. A sometimes silly adventure of a mage who 'accidentally' created and drank a potion of eternal youth.
Now I'm a Demon Lord! Happily Ever After with Monster Girls in My Dungeon - power fantasy MC who does raise a few 'kids' (and 'pets') he takes in. Does have a harem setup, but the family aspect is the focus. His whole drive to get stronger goes from surviving to protecting his family. Surprisingly wholesome. probably the closet to the titles you mentioned.
Why Shouldn’t a Detestable Demon Lord Fall in Love?! - completed series. the first book is a tad lovey dovey with the M and F leads, but the other 3 are about their the family and the couple navigating life.
Private Tutor to the Duke’s Daughter - The MC may have a harem setup with his students, but he really only has eyes for one girl (who is his age and they went to the same school and graduated together). the MC is very protective of his students and seems to be a good tutor. He does help his charges grow and overcome roadblocks in their lives.
Chillin’ in Another World with Level 2 Super Cheat Powers - There are some problematic parts (the manga and anime 'fixed' some of them), so not sure I like recommending it. But is an OP fantasy, and it does involve raising kids (some really op kids) for the MC and several of the side characters. It can be fun, but I am putting a big warning label on it. It has sexual assault in it (not by the MC, but by a being that ends up working for the MC. I still hate that part and the character that does it).
I guess Demon Lord Retry may fall under it too. OP MC, and he does take in a kid that he looks after. Taking care of her is not the focus. It is a fun romp type of story, but does get violent to a comedic degree.
-
@unknownmat said in A New Type Of Self-Insert Wish Fulfillment:
@Serah said in A New Type Of Self-Insert Wish Fulfillment:
It just came to my mind since the protagonist is treating their harem less like a harem and more like the "big bro" character you might have in mind.
Hmm. This may be the single most convincing argument for Rokujouma that I've heard yet.
The thing about Rokujouma is that the first couple of volumes start as multi-girl hijinks - though they're fighting over control of the male lead's apartment, not over him. They're a surprisingly diverse group, from a magical girl to a ghost tied to the apartment to a space alien to an underground civilization wielding spiritual power. And then the angle shifts, the themes deepen beyond hijinks, and they start bonding into a nakama as they face external threats from their various backgrounds. Finally, after the situation matures, there's an event that throws everything so far into a new perspective and makes things start fitting together with a satisfying click.
The main problem I have with it is that it came to what should have been a natural end at volume 29, but the author decided to continue the story with a 'happy endings aren't so simple' instead. These can be good, and it started out all right, but it developed into a 'let's rehash the same conflict again' story. :p I'd suggest stopping at 29, and maybe reading some of the side stories if you want more of the characters.
(That's something that may reduce the intimidation factor... after volume 13, there are several side-story volumes that are fun digressions but don't add to the plot and can be skipped if you want.)
