How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry
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@AlexUsman said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
There is actuallly a thing I always hated about companies who only license books after they got an anime. It always felt to me that those companies are just tagging along trying to profit on successful things while not caring about them in the slightest.
My impression (I don't have insider knowledge on this) is that a lot of these companies, despite producing scads of material, actually operate on pretty marginal budgets. So if they have a chance to license something that's been proven successful, perhaps over against putting that money into something that might very well bomb, or end after just a couple of volumes, or who knows what, I could see why they would. If that successful property also has an anime to drive interest, so much the better. I don't think any of this implies that they "don't care in the slightest" about these properties except as cash cows. They simply want the best chance of a good return on their investment – like any company, and especially like any company without enough resources to absorb repeated major flops.
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@Anssi said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
In this case Seven Seas with couple of manga series I used to follow. Additionally, if you check their "recent news" section, they have some licencing announcements made in April that announce the release of vol 1's to late January.
The delay of the first volume from the announcement of the license is not what we are talking about. That is an unfortunate but unavoidable circumstance of the American bookstore system requiring 8+ months ahead of time for preorders. Seven Seas does offer digital first releases for their light novels, which can help mitigate that gap a bit.
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@Jon-Mitchell said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
The point you raise about music is an interesting parallel. Napster and the torrent sites that followed it pretty much killed the music CD industry, to the point (that in the USA at least) bands don't count of recordings/streaming/'record sales' as their primary revenue stream- Concerts and merch, that's where the money is. Before Napster, concerts (and radio broadcast) were vehicles to promote record sales, and to attend one cost the equivalent of $75-80 in today's US dollars)- Concerts enforced DRM (no bootleg tape recorders allowed- unless it's the Grateful Dead) , now big ticket artists rely on concerts for the revenue, and 'cheap' tickets might cost $300 (once you pay ticketmaster fees etc) ---now that COVID is a thing, it's going to be interesting to see where the music industry goes.
There’s an interesting Freakonomics episode about event tickets and how they’re horrendously underpriced from an economic perspective, and thus implicitly support scalpers. This would probably be an off-topic aside, but it occurred to me that this is a real-life example of hurting the industry it intends to support (giving the benefit of the doubt to most translators and ignoring the reports of Ticketmaster working with scalpers deliberately) when making things available too cheaply. Scalped tickets don’t give an extra cut to artists in the same way that free online translations don’t provide anything more to authors. It’s not exactly the same thing, but it’s a curious parallel for the conversation.
Edit: Added link to the episode.
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@HawkEyeTS When machine translation of Japanese web novels gets good enough to be enjoyable to read without any manual localization effort, I actually don't think it will have TOO much of an affect on our business. If anything it might even serve as good advertising.
Even in Japan, popular web novels are published as LNs, and ebooks, even though the original web novels are still available for free. The LNs have extra content or a reedited story, illustrations, and are generally a more polished product and the consumers gladly pay for that (even when they often still read the web novel too). I think the western audience would mirror that. Plus there would be the added benefit that even if machine translation is "good enough to be enjoyable" it will be a much much longer time until it's nearly as good as a proper human translation, so people will pay for the ebooks or LNs that are properly translated and see them as good value, sort of like how people appreciate our translations over poor fan translations today.
No, rather than hurt our business, competent machine translation will kill off the remaining fan translation scene completely instead. Although that might have a long term negative affect of making experienced Japanese to English translators harder to find eventually.
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@Jon-Mitchell said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
Are there 'shades of grey' between the two extremes I spoke of? Sure I can think of several, but a tweet is a straw man argument
You'd be surprised. ^_^; I don't know of a Japanese-language example, but here's an english one:
https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/31/16536952/twitter-ghost-story-thread-dear-davidI also want to apologize for the whole tone of my post the other day -- I was in a bad mood when I wrote it, and it wasn't your fault. I winced when I re-read my post, and it's very nice of you to be so polite when responding.
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@Sam-Pinansky said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
@HawkEyeTS When machine translation of Japanese web novels gets good enough to be enjoyable to read without any manual localization effort, I actually don't think it will have TOO much of an affect on our business. If anything it might even serve as good advertising.
Even in Japan, popular web novels are published as LNs, and ebooks, even though the original web novels are still available for free. The LNs have extra content or a reedited story, illustrations, and are generally a more polished product and the consumers gladly pay for that (even when they often still read the web novel too). I think the western audience would mirror that. Plus there would be the added benefit that even if machine translation is "good enough to be enjoyable" it will be a much much longer time until it's nearly as good as a proper human translation, so people will pay for the ebooks or LNs that are properly translated and see them as good value, sort of like how people appreciate our translations over poor fan translations today.
No, rather than hurt our business, competent machine translation will kill off the remaining fan translation scene completely instead. Although that might have a long term negative affect of making experienced Japanese to English translators harder to find eventually.
So why are the companies currently so against licensing novels which has been translated?
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@Zing He's talking about machine translation, not fan translations in general.
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@Ran said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
tone of my post the other day
no worries - stuff happens
-from what I posted (and you replied to) you can see that I don't believe this is a clear cut issue. Since the topic first came up I've seen more alternative translation/ publication sites (that appear to be ethical like Honeyfeed, or other places that allow authors to self publish), and, sadly I've seen/heard of more instances of authors' work stolen:
- JNC publications on bit-torrent sites
- fan translations of current works behind paywalls
- malware/viruses embedded in fan translations
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Im here because of fan translations, Spent a bunch of money recently getting kindle books as well.
I wish I started reading here sooner because the original fan sub stops when US releases start and is usually picked up by lower quality subbers who shorten everything.Just like video game piracy it usually drives more sales then would other wise happen. Piracy of your video game actually increases sales. DRM is mainly used to lock down games to prevent modding which would hurt cashshop/DLC revenues.
In the case of anime the biggest driver of merch which directly supports the original creators comes from Fan subs not the US license holders; Who pay a small fixed amount rights to sub and air in the US. So Fan subs help out the creators make money far more then going though "legal" license holders.
Im paying for quality here which in the case of Anime subs I find fan subs to be of higher quality, larger selection, and usually quicker then license holders.
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I’m probably an odd one out but the gap between the fan LN translations and professional ones is huge to me. There’s simple grammar things, like dialogue tags belonging to the speaker instead of being after the conversation occurred, and the ease of reading from individuals who understand they are adapting for English readers and not trying to make it a straight Japanese-> English 1:1 that leads to clunky and awkward reads because the two languages are so different. when it comes to LN it’s go pro or go home. Manga is different because it’s not straight prose, but I do support official releases when available.
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@N0tl0c Oddly enough, Valve found that the opposite is true: piracy doesn’t drive sales so much as it defers them. They solved a good portion of their piracy losses in Russia some years back by just doing global release dates instead of releasing in one market at a time across the globe. People wanted the games that were totally out but not available legally in their area, so they turned to illegal means. Valve made games available in all markets, and the people who wanted the games just bought them. This does support the idea that fan translations may not be as harmful as some fear, given that (as far as I recall) Valve never credited the policy with increasing sales as opposed to just decreasing piracy. So most of their “underserved customers” who turned to piracy were apparently getting the official release eventually. At the same time, though, if license holders and localization companies don’t embrace that idea in their marketing decisions, the end result is the same as if it directly hurts marketability.
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@petitmelon I read the first eight or nine Haruhi Suzumiya novels in fan translation, because they weren't available in English at the time. There were multiple volumes that... well... weren't exactly well-translated; it's the main reason why I didn't get around to reading Volume 10 when the fan translation came out (not that I didn't try; I just didn't succeed). I've begun purchasing the actual volumes out of a desire to read the series again and remembrance of some of the holes in my reading due to poor translation, and it's so much easier to read them.
Heck, the varying quality of fan translations is one of the biggest reasons I don't look for fan translations of the original light novels of anime I enjoy — and so if I can't find an official, I just don't read the original. It's made my watchings of 8th Son and Bofuri feel "all right", but I enjoy both foreknowledge (it's why I picked up Bookworm around the time episode 8 came out) and I enjoy seeing the differences in the various adaptions (which is why if there's a manga of a series I really like I'll pick that up too, and hence why I've got the next volumes of Bookworm and Bakarina preordered in both LN and manga), so they're a lot less satisfying than they potentially could have been (or maybe infuriating? I don't know, not knowing what they may have cut makes it harder for me to enjoy it).
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@EmpactWB said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
@N0tl0c Oddly enough, Valve found that the opposite is true: piracy doesn’t drive sales so much as it defers them. They solved a good portion of their piracy losses in Russia some years back by just doing global release dates instead of releasing in one market at a time across the globe. People wanted the games that were totally out but not available legally in their area, so they turned to illegal means. Valve made games available in all markets, and the people who wanted the games just bought them. This does support the idea that fan translations may not be as harmful as some fear, given that (as far as I recall) Valve never credited the policy with increasing sales as opposed to just decreasing piracy. So most of their “underserved customers” who turned to piracy were apparently getting the official release eventually. At the same time, though, if license holders and localization companies don’t embrace that idea in their marketing decisions, the end result is the same as if it directly hurts marketability.
Pretty much want happened to fan subbing as well.
Companies embraced simultaneous release. -
@petitmelon LOL. I find that the grammar in the official translations often annoys me (e.g. mixing up amount and number or less and fewer). The grammar and vocabulary in most fan translations is absolutely atrocious in comparison. There are times where you just put up with it, because it's the only way to read the story short of learning Japanese, but there are definitely series that I would have blown through if they were in good English but where I had to just put them away for a while, because the translation was too painful to read. It's part of why I'm interested in getting official translations even for series that have been completed by fan translators.
I'm grateful to fan translators when their work is the only way that I'm able to read a series, but it would be so much better if the translations were official with a proper editor. The result is just all around better, and there are no pesky legal or moral issues involved. :)
And yeah, that habit in LN writing of not saying who is saying what until after several people have spoken is incredibly annoying.
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I would say theres a sweet spot where a volume or two fantranslated could get people wanting more and really help but going past there tends to hurt the industry in terms of people not having a good reason to buy a merely decent series they've already read.
There are series I kinda want but can't justify buying yet after reading many of the volumes but a new series that I've heard good things about can be easily bought. On the other hand there are series like Konosuba and Overlord which I own all of but have only read the fantranslations.
I've gave up on fantranslations myself due to the pain of finding translations that can't put things into english decently. -
@Sashas It really depends. I for my part still buy the series I like (e.g. Overlord like you as a physical copy and even digital, Kuma Kuma Kuma Bear, etc) If I enjoy a series I am still buying them although I have progressed widely with the fan translations. But this is my standpoint. Although.... this could also be my collector genes speaking (looking at the 2 japanese volumes of 'Another', the english one, the 'Another Episode S/0' and the german deluxe edition including Zero)
As I already posted here I will hold my comment brief. Without fantranslations I would have never bought this much books or different series. It did enable me to find many gems.
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@Zing said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
The problem is that scans are keeping up with the Japanese release. Where official translation is just so far behind, I can hardly see them as being relevant.
I dont wish to wait 6-8 month between buying a volume of manga I like, this is very unappealing to me and it leads me to believe that I am not its target consumer. The official release might be targeting a different market segment then the one I am present in.Simulcasting anime has been the most effective tool against anime piracy. That being said, light novels require a lot more effort to translate than episodes of anime, and one of the reasons fangroups can translate so quickly is their willingness to sacrifice quality at the altar of speed.
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I have no problem with fan translations they made me discover so many titles that ended supporting by buying the official volumes (like overlord).
My issue is with websites that hold pirated versions of published lightnovels. The people who invest in the industry have the right for a fair return and be able to have confortable living.
Fans that feel entitled for free (pirated) novels triggers me way more than any fan translators which in his/her are also contributing to the industry growth.
I wouldn't be a light novel reader if not for fan translators, as I started only reading light novels with the fan translation of SOA and NGNL. Many more potential customers will be introduced to light novels by fan translators in the future. They are an important cog in the wheel, I still research new lightnovels by checking out fan translations when available. I even donated to them to appreciate their fast releases of my favorite novels.
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If fan translation is such a problem why not directly sign a deal with up and coming Japanese author on syosetu? Just like the regular Japanese publisher do.
Then you can outsource the print edition to a Japanese company and have a simultaneous book release in the west and the east. -
@Zing Simultaneous would give problems. JNC is fast but any japanese publisher would try to bring the original work out as fast as possible. They would not wait for an english translation.
