Over-localization
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@wellwisher said in Over-localization:
I read japanese light novels to read japanese light novels
Then learn Japanese.
A book that's not set in Japan should not come with a secret requirement to be familiar with Japanese jokes and sentence structure, nor should a reader have to Google things constantly. Light novels are also not research papers; breaking someone's reading flow because they have to go check a footnote in order to understand what was just said is not a good practice.
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@myskaros Err, Secret Organisation (where this post was initially written) is set in Japan.
Let's clarify first that I'm not arguing about leaving things as they are in japanese. I even agree that speech quirks are garbage and need to be purged. Heck, even removal of honourifics is sometimes for the better.
I am telling thatif we leave the "sweet spot" (and yes, I know said spot is different for everyone), I'd prefer translation to be on a side without unnecessary changes.
We don't mirror manga anymore, despite it being quite confusing for new people.
Footnotes are not specific to research papers, lots and lots of fiction books have it.Then learn Japanese.
Good idea. JP books are cheaper, too.
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@wellwisher said in Over-localization:
(where this post was initially written)
The Secret Org topic was drifting further from being about Secret Org and more just general talk so I moved several comments, that did not relate directly to Secret Org
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@wellwisher said in Over-localization:
I am telling thatif we leave the "sweet spot" (and yes, I know said spot is different for everyone), I'd prefer translation to be on a side without unnecessary changes.
I can agree with this.
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I'm just going to throw in my own two cents. Mr/Ms sounds so unnatural that it makes me cringe every time I see it. English high school kids or friends wouldn't call each other "Mr/Ms" every time they talk to each other, So I think that should be dropped entirely and translators should just use their names and that's it. Readers can fill in the rest while reading if they know which Japanese honorific to use/even want honorifics.
Everything else is fine and if there's a part that could be better in the reader's opinion, they can read it in their head how they want it worded.
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my $.02:
there are elements of Japanese culture that I enjoy being in the gestalt of LN (and anime, and manga) including but not limited to (and if they were completely removed would detract from the art):
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Honorifics
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activities that Japanese students do at school/dates/ living that are different than American (clubs, festivals, typical dates, vending machines, karaoke, meals etc)
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religion (or the lack thereof)/religious practices/holidays
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food (whats for breakfast etc)
how some of these things get localized (translated) requires nuance, and for the most part JNC translators have done a pretty good job (Loki-dear in Magicmaster still feels weird, but I've seen honorifics handled much worse)
in general I prefer less localization over more, and had to look up what "Oyasuminasai" meant as it became a plot point in Lazy DM, but I'm glad it wasn't localized to "nighty-nite" ) -
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Whoever said nothing's impossible never tried slamming a revolving door.
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@wellwisher said in Over-localization:
Good idea. JP books are cheaper, too.
Not always:
Bookworm Part 1 Vol 1 Kindle Japanese $8.75 vs English $6.86.
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I guess we have to agree to disagree- "sempai/kohai, -san, -sama" etc. it's difficult to translate and still carry the same "weight" - there's a line and not everyone agrees where it is and how it's handled
Mr./Ms. can be "-San"
but calling a classmate "senior" or "junior' as part of their name - sounds stilted and weird, but if once in a while I call my mentor/upperclassman "sempai" it seems okI read banned books
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@godsgoldenpubes The problem with dropping honorifics is that, in many cases, use or non-use can imply anything from a belittling insult to excess familiarity. English doesn't have direct equivalents that show the "subtle differences" in formality as concisely, but yes, you have to learn that separately from the text.
The Irregular at Magic High School has lots of examples of poor localization, especially with honorifics, in the print edition. When they convert all metric measurements to feet and inches... as if English speakers haven't heard of "meters"... it's especially cringe-worthy!
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@jon-mitchell My eternal rebuttal is that in any other language, there are millions of books that somehow don't have anything like a magical honorific to tell you how characters are related to each other, yet no one's voiced any complaints yet. It's not impossible to translate, it just requires effort in both the writer and the reader.
Whoever said nothing's impossible never tried slamming a revolving door.
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@myskaros
Tolstoy threw me for a loop the fist time I read it (as a translation from Russian) “why is everyone referencing that guy by his last name? Wait, that’s not his last name, it’s his dad’s fist name with ‘0vich’ added! Why don’t they just call him ‘Peter?” -
In regards to honorifics, I think it would depend on how often it is being mentioned of its usage by the character in their monologues or how it's emphasized by the other characters to use x honorific, etc.
I do appreciate that most of the translated ones I read here so far kept those intact.
Also, with localization in general, the only type of over-localization that would annoy me so much is completely changing the location of the story (see Ace Attorney / Gyakuten Saiban )
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@harunachiep said in Over-localization:
Also, with localization in general, the only type of over-localization that would annoy me so much is completely changing the location of the story (see Ace Attorney / Gyakuten Saiban )
That’s something that the translator said they’d change if given a do-over. Based just on the first game it was a reasonable choice; by the time later games made it more and more implausible, the ship had already sailed.
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Bookworm is translated without any use of Japanese honorifics. Here is one interesting technique I saw Quof employed in translating very specific use of "-chan".
In Bookworm Part 2 Vol 1 - Cleaning Up the Orphanage; his translation:
But still... Delia sure is being unreasonable here, isn’t she? What a cutie.
In original, it was more like:
But still... Delia-chan sure is being unreasonable here, isn’t she?
No where else Myne ever refer to Delia as "Delia-chan" in the original, but here, it was added in Myne's internal voice for the effect of Delia being cute here. Quof expressed that feeling very naturally with addition of "What a cutie.".
It is hardly a generic technique and it can be used in very specific context, but I just wanted to present it here as an example of what translator go through.
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@myskaros said in Over-localization:
@jon-mitchell said in Over-localization:
Honorifics
You're dead to me now.
Honorifics are one of the worst offenders for me, because most of the over-localizations do the opposite of what they're supposed to - they call attention to themselves instead of vanishing into the background.
-chan seems to be one of the worst offenders - 'Young Miss Aisha'? 'Young Miss Naden'? Really? Does anyone really think that sounds like natural speech? Presumably Fuuga's use of Aisha-chan and Naden-chan was meant to make him sound casual and overly familiar, but that kind of translation makes him sound stilted and overly formal.
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Personally I really prefer honorifics to be kept intact if the setting is in Japan and maybe sometimes in fantasy worlds, but I do think there are some cases where they really probably shouldn't be kept in, like if something is set in 1800s England or something.
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@myskaros But, in other languages/cultures, is there the same sort of hierarchy involved in interpersonal social relationships? The number of honorifics in common use in English is not what it used to be, but they still exist.
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Honorifics. I guess it depends on context.
Keeping in mind that we're reading Japanese Light Novels, I kind of assume that there are honorifics in the original text. Now if it's a story with Japanese characters, especially if it's set in Japan, like Kokoro Connect, I expect to see honorifics. If it's not set in Japan (isekai), my expectation of honorifics really can vary widely. Outbreak Company would seem wierd without them while Smartphone and a few other seem fine. Stories where the characters aren't even Japanese really would be jarring with them.
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@travis-butler said in Over-localization:
Honorifics are one of the worst offenders for me, because most of the over-localizations do the opposite of what they're supposed to - they call attention to themselves instead of vanishing into the background.
-chan seems to be one of the worst offenders - 'Young Miss Aisha'? 'Young Miss Naden'? Really? Does anyone really think that sounds like natural speech? Presumably Fuuga's use of Aisha-chan and Naden-chan was meant to make him sound casual and overly familiar, but that kind of translation makes him sound stilted and overly formal.I absolutely agree that most attempts to localize honorifics is a short road to disaster. I was accused of trying to advocate for the over-localization of a certain LN, but I actually prefer some native flavor. Either leave the honorific or just drop it entirely and hope context conveys the relationship. Some work, such as changing -san to "Mr./Mrs." and -sama to "Master/Mistress" but you probably can't change some but keep others. That lacks consistency.
For me, the worst offenders is when the personal titles are used in place of names such as onii/onee, senpai/kohai, etc. I don't know about you, but I never called my brother "brother" when addressing him in the normal course of the day. Translating Onii to "brother" breaks the flow. It's better to just leave it as Onii or use the characters actual name. Same goes for coworkers, bosses, and the like. I called my boss either Jill or Mr. Gruber, depending on how high up the food chain he was. If I tried to get his attention with "Boss", I would likely get written up for insubordination (well, not that far but you get the idea), and that is the impression I get when I read scripts where people are called "Boss/Manager" -- lack of respect.
