Over-localization
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Elsewhere in this thread someone mentioned tatami mats as an unit of measurement. Recently, someone in a translation described a room as "about six square meters". I thought that was an oddly specific size and I've previously seen "six tatami mat" as a common Japanese idiom for a small room, so checked the source and saw that six tatami was indeed used and indeed rounded to one square meter. Knew a tatami mat is about one meter by two meters and therefore knew that six was definitely wrong by any measure. So looked up the real size and found out the most common size is 0.91 by 1.82 meters. So a six tatami mat room is 9.9372 square meters, and a proper translation is "about ten square meters". For us folks using imperial measurements, a nine foot by twelve foot room is less than 3/4ths of an inch too large in both dimensions. Definitely close enough. But there's a part of me that wishes the result wasn't ten square meters. Actually want any number but ten. Reason is due to rounding. If I see nine, or eleven, I think "rounded to nearest whole unit" and know that the actual sizes are somewhere between 8.5 to 9.5, or 10.5 to 11.5 respectively. But with ten, I have the additional option of "rounded to one significant digit", so the actual size is either between 9.5 to 10.5, or between 9.5 to 15 and the mental jarring as I determine which interpretation to use is annoying.
Frankly, if the translator used any value other than six, I probably wouldn't have noticed and continued reading. But now that I've done the research and the math, it's likely that if any translator uses any number other than ten, it's likely to trigger my doing a cross check. But still really wish the result wasn't a ten.Morning and Mourning sound alike for good and sufficient reasons.
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Well put. Having unfamiliar foods don't trip me up as much as having something that sounds out of place like having someone in Hokkaido making home-cooked tacos because us gaijin don't know what Nikujaga is.
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@hiroto there's also issues with reader expectations even if translation issues are not involved. For instance, Eric Flint in a novel of his described some Roman shields as "laminated wood" which quite accurate, instead of the shorter and just as accurate "plywood" because to his audience, "plywood" is a modern development and has no place in a story involving Roman legions. Just as in your example, do you introduce a foreign word to the audience or say "meat and potatoes", or perhaps " meat and potato stew".
Morning and Mourning sound alike for good and sufficient reasons.
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In general if the food have it's own name I'd prefer it to be left intact. Even if I can't make out what it is from a context, googling it is not a big deal, unlike trying to reverse-engineer what it was initially. Thanks, I already have enough of that with converting everything back to metric.
As an example, something like onigiri is very specific while "rice balls" can mean anything from a huge selection of dishes that fall into this category. -
@hamsterexastris said in Over-localization:
I think that if the name can be translated it should be (e.g. prefer "rice balls" over "onigiri"), but I'd rather see unfamiliar food terms than have them be changed to something else entirely.
Yeah, onigiri is one typical staple food which is not in the common English vocabulary like sushi. I guess because it is not served in Japanese restaurants. I'm still waiting for some entrepreneur to create national onigiri franchise and make it popular in US. It is so much more versatile food than sushi.
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@jcochran said in Over-localization:
"meat and potatoes", or perhaps " meat and potato stew".
That is a valid option in this particular case.
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Unless we are talking about actual Japanese house and the room size is important subject matter in the plot, quite often author using 4.5 tatami mat, 6 tatami mat, and 8 tatami mat as coarse estimating of the room size. They are really really rough number to begin with.
Also, there are different tatami mat size, and 6 tatami mat can be anywhere between 8.67 sq meter and 10.94 sq meter, adding even more fuzziness.
So translator has great amount of flexibility in deciding how to covert these numbers.
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@hiroto Oh, I know about the different sizes such as Kyoto, Nagoya, Tokyo, and even found a company that makes mats in custom sizes. That's why I said "most common size". Honestly, would prefer the translator just keep the tatami mat convention in place to add a bit of local flavor. But then again, this entire thread is dealing with the issues of under or over localization, so doubt than any one preference is superior to another.
Also will say that this entire thread is extremely interesting. Learned about the green/blue aoi issue here today and wonder if it's at the root of a few recent posts in the P2V2 Ascendance of a Bookworm forum.
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Back when I was reading Lazy Dungeon Master, I believe there was also some confusion because the translator decided that "anpan" was better recognized as "jam bread".
So my opinion is that food and cuisine should be left as is. If there's an obvious translation, then certainly use that (eg "omelette rice" or "rice in an omelette" for "omurice"), but switching references should never happen.
Because so far from what I've seen in JNC translations, every attempt to make something more "familiar" to English readers assumes an American cultural base. Which means now I have to figure out what this weird new foodstuff or reference is, thus the point of making it "more familiar" is lost.
@farmerdad said in Over-localization:
Well put. Having unfamiliar foods don't trip me up as much as having something that sounds out of place like having someone in Hokkaido making home-cooked tacos because us gaijin don't know what Nikujaga is.
And then there's Okinawan cuisine, where "taco rice" is actually the usual taco fillings over (white) rice. Pronounced the same as "tako" (octopus) too, for extra confusion when I visited.
@hiroto said in Over-localization:
Unless we are talking about actual Japanese house and the room size is important subject matter in the plot, quite often author using 4.5 tatami mat, 6 tatami mat, and 8 tatami mat as coarse estimating of the room size. They are really really rough number to begin with.
Also, there are different tatami mat size, and 6 tatami mat can be anywhere between 8.67 sq meter and 10.94 sq meter, adding even more fuzziness.
So translator has great amount of flexibility in deciding how to covert these numbers.
Of course, we have an actual series where the six tatami mat room is part of the title, much less an important subject matter in the plot.
From what I can tell, the term "six-tatami" when used in Japanese media is generally not so much about the exact dimensions, but more about how small the place is. Not so tiny that it's unusual, but more that it's the sort of flat someone looking to save money on living space would rent/buy, especially if they're living alone. Small living space, basic amenities, and certainly not the sort of place you'd expect to be invaded by a number of supernatural factions.
So I think it's fine to avoid measurements entirely, and instead use the cultural equivalent. Searching Wikipedia, apparently this is called "studio apartment" or "micro apartment" or "bachelor pad".
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@unsynchedcheese said in Over-localization:
every attempt to make something more "familiar" to English readers assumes an American cultural base.
Well, we are an American company, after all...
To reiterate, there is never going to be a happy middle ground. Leaving it untranslated can alienate anyone unfamiliar with Japanese food/culture. Trying to translate it will alienate Japanese language "purists" who don't want it translated. Trying to localize it will alienate the locales not chosen.
Even the people who complain are only the couple dozen vocal minority who care enough to make a forum account or find the right Twitter tags. Most people just read it and move on.
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@farmerdad said in Over-localization:
Well put. Having unfamiliar foods don't trip me up as much as having something that sounds out of place like having someone in Hokkaido making home-cooked tacos because us gaijin don't know what Nikujaga is.
Me too. I'd be happiest with a loose translation like "meat and potato stew" for Nikujaga since I'd never heard of it until now, but given the choice between using the unfamiliar term or replacing it with something obviously wrong like mac 'n' cheese or haggis please go with the original dish.
In a Japanese light novel I also expect currency references to be in yen not dollars until they inevitably are transported to their new world, at which point they pay with coppers, silvers, gold, etc.
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Can't you just do both with an example like the food thing?
'"Let's eat some Tamagoyaki"
We started digging into the Tamagoyaki, a rolled, square shaped Omlete.' -
@terrence said in Over-localization:
Can't you just do both with an example like the food thing?
'"Let's eat some Tamagoyaki"
We started digging into the Tamagoyaki, a rolled, square shaped Omlete.'That could be considered, if not over-localization, taking liberties with the original manuscript. The original author didn't put the phrase "a rolled, square-shaped omelet" in his book. Now, I know that such liberties are taken with speech tags as it is often obvious who is speaking in Japanese by word choices in a way that doesn't translate into English, which I appreciate. So, it's a tricky line to walk.
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@terrence said in Over-localization:
Can't you just do both with an example like the food thing?
'"Let's eat some Tamagoyaki"
We started digging into the Tamagoyaki, a rolled, square shaped Omlete.'That would be the worst case to happen. Some sort of that, and that demands that English novels, for example, needs to put the same kind of text-disturbing explanations for stuff like shepherd's pie or sloppy joes.
Better to such customs as original as names and have instead extra notes to help out - as seen with the Final Fantasy Lost Stranger manga or the foot/side notes with other. Plus: when it comes to digital content, there is still the benefit of device included Wikipedia access.
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@farmerdad There ARE books that insert translation notes in the back... The style used by My Youth Romantic Comedy is Wrong as I Expected doesn't just explain what the original meant to convey, but also what memes are being used. A food example:
P. 199 Okonomiyaki is something like a savory pancake ...
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@someoldguy said in Over-localization:
@farmerdad There ARE books that insert translation notes in the back... The style used by My Youth Romantic Comedy is Wrong as I Expected doesn't just explain what the original meant to convey, but also what memes are being used. A food example:
P. 199 Okonomiyaki is something like a savory pancake ...
Yes, I've seen that and I love that! But the explanation isn't added inline with the story. I have learned so much about Japanese things that way, because yes, I read those foot notes when the story is over.
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yup - I'd like glossaries or footnotes - I know it adds work for TL and could be a challenge to tag what has notes in a way that doesn't upset the flow of reading (I suggest putting words or phrases that would have a note in the glossary in a different font, and we'd all figure it out soon enough)
example:
we went to a specialty restaurant and shared a Okonomiyaki. It was quite good, good times were had by all..
then in the glossary:
Okonomiyaki: something like a savory pancake, traditional dish in Hiroshima region, often prepared table-side by the diners themselves and shared... -
I prefer food and drink dishes to have the original names wherever possible, unless it’s going to cause confusion, like kombucha which is a Japanese word, but it refers to a different drink in Japan.
I mean, you wouldn’t call arancini “rice balls”, so why call onigiri that? But then you can get onigiri fairly easily in the UK (London at least) - one of the main takeaway Japanese restaurant chainsWasabi has them and calls them onigiri.
Actually I just Googled “rice balls” and found recipes for both onigiri and arancini with one of the recipes for the latter being called “Italian rice balls”, so maybe people do call them that?
As for okonomiyaki, there’s a restaurant in London that does that, and there’s been at least one street food stand that did it as well, though it’s obviously not as well-known.
I just think for food, foreign names eventually become more familiar as food spreads, which it seem to do faster than in the past. It also depends on where you live even within the same country - big cities or areas with immigration from certain countries get “foreign” cuisines faster than smaller towns.
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Would you expect French Fries in an American based story to be called Chips in the localized version for Britain? And call American chips crisps in the localized version?
I think most localizations make the change?
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@lilitu93 said in Over-localization:
I mean, you wouldn’t call arancini “rice balls”, so why call onigiri that? But then you can get onigiri fairly easily in the UK (London at least) - one of the main takeaway Japanese restaurant chainsWasabi has them and calls them onigiri.
That reminds me how weird onigiri were translated with the localised Pokémon anime...
I am convinced, trying to substitute cuisine terms is definitely some over-localised. And it will not stop there in worst case. Imagine a mosque is suddenly called church just for matching regional cultures. You lose far too much when trying to substitute regional customs.
