Over-localization
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@thomask said in Over-localization:
It also allows us at a glance to say 'okay, they are at 'that level' of intimacy.
Intimacy is addressed via other means in English, so it would be easy to remove honorifics and adjust dialog appropriately to achieve the same effect. Very rarely is the presence or absence of honorifics so integral to the story that expressing important context in other ways risking a complete collapse of some delicate balance of interpersonal Jenga.
Now, changing things around like that might broach on other principles that readers dislike, but I think there really needs to be a reining in of the "honorifics are necessary because of all the meaning!" viewpoint.
Namely, it's a crutch. Unless you are intimately familiar with Japanese, believing you can accurately identify the level of intimacy between two people because she said "George-san" versus "George" versus "George-chan" without any other context is a delusion. Maybe he's American and doesn't care. Maybe she's American and doesn't get the meaning. Maybe they're just close friends with no romantic spark. All of these factoids and more should be present in the thing you are reading and should all tell you far more about how two people relate to each other without needing a -san or lack thereof to clue you in. And if they're two characters you're meeting for the first time... should you really be assuming any amount of their shared history based solely on what they call each other?
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@myskaros Good points. I’m very much a beginner in my Japanese language studies but I know enough to know tons of Japanese is contextual and it goes well beyond san and chan and a good translator should be able to convey much of that in English alone. Outside of Otaku circles in other Japanese fiction no one seems too fussed with “under localization” and I’ve read some amazing and insightful Japanese fiction that conveyed a broad range of cultural insight without the use of honorifics.
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@thomask That is a horrible example as it is simply a -bad translation-. Translating is more than simply literal transposing words. Hell, there's a reason that translating is sometimes considered an art. Have you read up on the process of how things are translated -anywhere-, not just Japanese? :)
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@thomask said in Over-localization:
The problem with dropping the japanese honourifics is, it takes some of the meaning out of the dialog.
Call me george
Sure thing george
no, call me george
yes...
we really do need the honorifics.
Call me george
Sure thing george-san
no, call me georgeYou don't need the honorifics, you just need to translate it differently. For example:
Call me George
Sure thing, Mister George
No, just George.Of course you're going to lose the meaning if you just do a word-for-word translation and then strip off the honorifics. But that wouldn't be how a translator would approach the problem.
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Yeah. Though I'd phrase it more like this:
"Call me George."
"Okay, sir, I'll call you George."
"No, just George, no need to be polite."
Same thing - emphasizing politeness, without the rough "Mister", nor the literal transliteration.
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@dtta said in Over-localization:
Yeah. Though I'd phrase it more like this:
"Call me George."
"Okay, sir, I'll call you George."
"No, just George, no need to be polite."
Same thing - emphasizing politeness, without the rough "Mister", nor the literal transliteration.
In my country this would work if George is in a position of authority, otherwise it would sound extremely unnatural.
In a dialogue between two lovers, it can be localized by making one asking to be called dear instead of dropping the honorific. In the more generic case of two aquaintances that become friends, maybe the switch could be from using surnames to first names...assuming they were using the surnames and we know the first names of the characters (I've read manga in which they were never revealed).
Truly, a translator's job isn't an easy task. -
Yup, thus why I said it's an art. We all might disagree on specifics, but it's important to not literally translate the work. You either miss cues or haphazardly leave them in in a weird manner.
It's why I said it's an art, not a science.
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@myskaros @Sam-Pinansky Welsh is another one, with glas (blue) being used for green things in nature (and possibly also traffic lights? I may be mixing that up with Japanese which I’ve studied a lot more recently).
There’s something about how language shapes how you “see” colours; QI talked about how in Homer’s time there was no word for blue in Greek, but the sky was abviously the same colour. Either on the show or podcast, they’ve also mentioned a tribe somewhere with many more words for green but none for blue who can distinguish between green swatches that look identical to westerners, but cannot identify between blue and green. -
Add "Mr". is very weird....
Yes, "Sir" is much better (but only in some cases)
OK, another example. (This case is real, now I don't remember when or where I read it).
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Can I call you by your name?
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Sure
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Thanks Guspaz.
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Hmm... at last add -san.
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OK, Guspaz-san
(Me) Good. -
Can I call you by your name?
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Sure
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Thanks Guspaz.
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Hmm... at last add Mr.
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OK, Mr. Guspaz.
(Me) Arrggghhhhh.......
In some cases the traductor is able to adapt the story very well without using honorifics, but in my opinion it is an unnecessary extra work, even worse as in the case of Tateyuu, in later volumes there are names that use honorific as part of the story (and some jokes) and if they have the localized names, they ruin the immersion.
Bookwalker (English translations rights arranged by One piece Books)
- Rapthalia-chan is translated as "Raphtalia"
- Raph-chan is translated as "Raph-chan"
(really, this is very bad)
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Most of the "over localization" examples mentioned so far don't bother me too much. There is one thing (as non-American) that does however: changing units from metric to imperial during translation.
"The room was about 16 feet high" ... Like hell it was. Japan uses the metric system, so imperial units should never be used in translations (except for maybe in footnotes or parentheses).
Fortunately J-Novel Club doesn't do this. Yen Press however is definitely guilty of doing this.
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@ghdpro said in Over-localization:
"The room was about 16 feet high" ... Like hell it was. Japan uses the metric system, so imperial units should never be used in translations
I think it's interesting that this bothers you when you say that a lot of these other examples don't. A room is going to be the size that it is regardless of the units used to measure it, so I'm curious why you feel it makes so much difference that the measurement be presented in one system versus another.
If a company thinks their translations are mainly being read by people in the USA, they may convert measurements as a convenience for their readers. You might argue that's not as precise as retaining the metric measurements, but then again, translating the book into English is not as precise as leaving it in Japanese, either. The questions are how much access you want to provide target-language readers to the text, and what you think the best form is for that access to take.
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The only time that changing metric to imperial would bother me is when it deals with scientific notation. I can take or leave "X tatami mats' => size, they both have positive or negatives.
But changing meters per second to feet when a scientist is talking is a big ow for me. :)
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@kevin-s said in Over-localization:
If a company thinks their translations are mainly being read by people in the USA
While it is true the English translations of LN by US companies are most likely mainly going to be read by people in the USA, I don't think the amount of non-USA readers is so insignificant to ignore them completely.
Would it really take you out of the immersion during reading too much if the line read:
"The room was about 5 meters (16ft) high"?While I understand that some Americans might be slightly annoyed at having to translate metric to imperial in their head (if there was only metric given in the translation), the opposite is also true for non-Americans.
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Personally, even as an American, I'd prefer they'd use Metric (except for temperature).
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I’m American and I’ve even lived in countries with the metric system and km make sense but it still takes me time to figure out meters.
I don’t ask translations to translate to feet and understand why some might not but personally I prefer it for ease of my reading experience.
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@dtta As an American studying science in college, I can understand both imperial or metric and I don't really care which is used (though I would totally be fine with the metric system overtaking imperial. Metric is just so much simpler and more scientific). The only measurement I have no idea how to size up in my head is tatami mats lol.
I do remember watching NGNL, and Shiro always saying "Nii," so it was really weird going to Yen's translation of "Bro," but other than say changing food to something more American (totally not acceptable), I don't mind how localized the novel gets. Though I hate it when fan translations have "Hai" or "goshujin" etc. romanized instead of just translating smh.
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I typed up a few responses to this topic only to delete them. This is a terribly subjective topic, as each of us has our own level of familiarity with the content. I don't think it's fair to assign any hard and fast rules, it's all going to be a case by case basis. There's always some interesting discussions on specific choices.
Ultimately, I figure if I really cared that much about faithfulness to the original, I'd get off my lazy butt and learn and experience Japanese directly. Otherwise, I have to accept that everything if going to be colored to some degree by the localizer. The best I can do there is get to know the choices they made and the reasons for their decisions, so I slowly learn more about the underlying original material.
On the whole metric/imperial thing, the main issue I have is with km to miles, and kg to pounds. Meter to foot, I just use 1 yard = 1 meter, it's close enough. But just to point out how dumb imperial is, I can never remember how many feet are in a mile.
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@legitpancake said in Over-localization:
I do remember watching NGNL, and Shiro always saying "Nii," so it was really weird going to Yen's translation of "Bro," but other than say changing food to something more American (totally not acceptable), I don't mind how localized the novel gets.
I don't really see what's so weird there. I can't think of any better translation for how she refers to him. Both are shortened from an obvious source word (Oniisan -> Brother).
Also, I personally can't stand the imperial system. Since my country uses the metric one I constantly have to look up how long something is in cm/m/km/etc. (Thanks, Yen!) Sometimes I don't even bother and just go "So, basically, it's long?". I get the logic for converting metric to imperial for an American audience, but I still don't like it.
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@doublemangekyo said in Over-localization:
I don't really see what's so weird there.
I think he was just expressing that he was caught off-guard since he was so used to one thing and now it was another.
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@flarecde @doublemangekyo I totally agree, the imperial system should just die ;-P
