How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry
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@Seandrake Problem is to get a direct contact with an author. Usually those are tied to a publisher and even though the oversea market is big, a japanese author would certainly earn more in their own country. So either the writer is tied with contracts to a japanese publisher or in the case of a newcomer/not so well known author would be wary with contracting outside of Japan. Besides international contract laws are bothersome. And I speak out of personal knowledge. Especially for am author as in the case of a lawsuit he would normally bring this case to the court in the land of the publisher.
Oh yeah an addition why I assume massive problems with a simultaneous release of a novel in Japanese/English (regarding my posting beforehand). Most japanese publisher would not favor such contracts as it could cut into their profits. Even with import taxes could an overseas version be cheaper than the local variant. So they would fear that their own audience would simply import those books.
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I think there is legitimate room for not-for-profit fan translations of light novels. They can provide a means to build interest in a series as well as provide a base indicator of potential. It can also provide an outlet for novels that are less likely to be picked up by EN publishers in the short to medium term. All you have to do is look at High School DxD. the fan translations of the first series (25 volumes) was completed 13 months before the license was announced by YP. Then there's Saijaku Muhai no Bahamut which is also completely fan TL'd and, as far as i'm aware, has never even had believable rumors about it being officially licensed.
The things that curtailed anime piracy obviously wont work for novels and manga but i think if publishers really thought open-mindedly and put their collective intelligence together, they could probably find a way to fit fan translations into the LN ecosystem without harming their own interests. Of course, that would probably require a seismic shift in thinking, especially from japanese publishers, but where there's a will there's eventually a way.
That said, i agree that fan translations should be at the earliest reasonable opportunity upon publication (perhaps in some sort of staggered buffer system if the fan translation can easily outpace the official TL or is already far far ahead when the series is licensed.) be removed to limit any 'competition' to the official translation
On the subject of fan translation quality, i dont think it's uniformly
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So i posted about Genius Prince a few weeks ago and well the person is still doing his fan translation , i messaged yen press about it.
Was thinking about joining the guys patroen with the cheapest option and messaging him about the fact that the light novel is licensed
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@whyohwhy1
Odds are the fan translator knows about it, and is just doing it anyway. It's not worth give it to them any money to tell them what they most likely already know. If anything, should report their patreon as they are publishing licenced work. -
Well, personally, they just make me want to buy the books since I prefer paperbacks or a more readable ebook format so I can bookmark where I am while reading it. Random text on webpage is inconvenient for hours of reading when I don't have the hours to just sit and read.
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@Jon-Mitchell said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
@renofury said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
I have no problem with fan translations they made me discover so many titles that ended supporting by buying the official volumes (like overlord).
My issue is with websites that hold pirated versions of published lightnovels. The people who invest in the industry have the right for a fair return and be able to have confortable living.
Fans that feel entitled for free (pirated) novels triggers me way more than any fan translators which in his/her are also contributing to the industry growth.
I wouldn't be a light novel reader if not for fan translators, as I started only reading light novels with the fan translation of SOA and NGNL. Many more potential customers will be introduced to light novels by fan translators in the future. They are an important cog in the wheel, I still research new lightnovels by checking out fan translations when available. I even donated to them to appreciate their fast releases of my favorite novels.
agreed there are 'fan translations' and there are 'fan translations'
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promoting (translation) a work because you are a fan, gets a thumbs up from me
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promoting (translation) a work for profit, continuing when asked by license holder to stop, hosting fan translations behind a paywall, hosting pirated work (i.e. licensed translations) --all earn my ire.
and the difference between the 2 groups is a moving line. what was ok 10 or 5 or 1 year ago may not be ok now - some of my own comments earlier in this thread (when I re-read them) feel out of date
I have to agree the 2nd hurts the industry. I've seen a number of series I've read catch up to licensed english release against the fan translation (scanlation) and the group continued doing it.
Dome X Kano, I think Shield Hero is past scanlation, and I've literally seen groups post LICENSED work on a certain ex aggregator (MR). I sent in a report to the site and they just sent back a form letter saying they where working on licensing it... yea ok...
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kissanime and kiss manga are gone. will this help or hurt.
As i started watching anime then checked out manga and then search the light novels and now own about 10+ full anime series and about 200 light novels
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@whyohwhy1 said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
kissanime and kiss manga are gone. will this help or hurt.
They are(were) not the only aggregators out there. That they disappeared only means others gained popularity. They were at the worst end of it though(ad-infested, scans of licensed manga, don't respect the fan translators, don't respect takedown notices etc).
But this is aggregators who often don't separate between licensed works and fan translations in what they put up(there are some who hold good practices though), so I'm not sure the question is of much relevance here.
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@whyohwhy1 personally, it'll hurt, because they were one of the few aggregators that were "clean" (be read- Virus-free) and, despite having a Crunchyroll account, I find it a bit expensive for my tastes
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@alfonso_rd_36
in the USA crunchyroll is free (if you allow commercial breaks) -
@Jon-Mitchell oh dear... Crunchyroll free has the current titles available after 1-2 months later (example, I'm watching Railgun T, so for today's episode I'd have to wait at6 least to the end of the month...)
I wanted to have a witty signature once I saw some of the ones some guys on the Bookworm forums had but None of the ones I thought felt witty enough...
The solution: Fuck it, I'll go Commando! -
@Zing said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
If fan translation is such a problem why not directly sign a deal with up and coming Japanese author on syosetu? Just like the regular Japanese publisher do.
Then you can outsource the print edition to a Japanese company and have a simultaneous book release in the west and the east.Precisely this.
Fan translators (generally) work for free or are working off patreon donations. They devote their free time to bring entertainment to a community that other companies won't take a risk on to provide. If it weren't for subs, there would be no anime market right now. If it weren't for fan translations of WN/LN/Manga then western interest would be pretty much nil. It has to start for free somewhere.We all recognize that providing supplication to the original author/publisher is important, but in general copyright holders have all the cards. They tear down the communities that are built up and "seed" foreign interest in a given work but also happily reap the "benefits" of the community by exploiting the homespun interest in their work.
If copyright holders were more forthcoming and honest, if they simply approached the fangroup and hired those hobbyists on, and if they gave the community incentive to contribute $$ instead of expecting free stuff, you would have a winning formula.
It comes down to whether you actually believe capitalism can create "positive sum games" where two parties can both benefit from cooperation. But largely in Japan or I guess in the publishing/entertainment world in general, people have a zero-sum game point of view, where "pirates" must be destroyed.
I can safely say I would not be spending money at j-novel.club today if there hadn't been numerous free access to manga, LN/WN in English. I think the "Steam" analogy also makes a lot of sense. What I like about j-novel.club is I can support the author and the translator and I can also have weekly/monthly updates on stuff, as opposed to waiting months and months and months for a singular release (which honestly diminishes my myopic interest).
Obviously, groups that want to just "give away work for free" might seem like a profit-loss for publishers and copyright-holders, but really you should view these groups as having minimal penetration into the market. If you are marketing your platform correctly, most traffic will flow to you. If your site has enough convenience for purchase and comes with the necessary features to keep people coming back, the free communities will serve only a minority of people anyway.
I am obviously ignorant of JP publishing culture, but I have always been baffled by they don't have EN translators already preparing an EN release of a book after it's been finished by the JP author. Do these JP-centric publishing houses only care about the JP market because they believe so little in their talent's work? Or are there way more financial hurdles in pushing translated works abroad still....
A perfect example for me right now is Re:Zero. That stuff is obviously popular in the West, yet its translation is at a snail's pace. If you're watching the anime right now and want to read, you're actually quite limited how much of it you can even buy in English, which makes no sense given the plethora of side story content available and how many years it's been out! This is the time it should be for sale - when the anime is airing; not years later when interest is at its low point. Obviously, I'm sure publishers are seeing, 'well there 50 books for this work, if we release all 50 in a month period, won't we be shooting ourselves in the foot...?' but even so, there were years wasted that could have built up to this point. The strategy was nonexistent. It only gives incentive to fan groups to diligently go along and translate page by page, because they know waiting for any official release is pointless.
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@alfonso_rd_36 said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
@Jon-Mitchell oh dear... Crunchyroll free has the current titles available after 1-2 months later (example, I'm watching Railgun T, so for today's episode I'd have to wait at6 least to the end of the month...)
Ooh, that's terrible. In the USA content is only 1 week behind "new" for free version (so you only need to wait for the most recent episode until the following week) Funimation is mostly the same
I read banned books
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@setite-0 said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
I am obviously ignorant of JP publishing culture, but I have always been baffled by they don't have EN translators already preparing an EN release of a book after it's been finished by the JP author. Do these JP-centric publishing houses only care about the JP market because they believe so little in their talent's work? Or are there way more financial hurdles in pushing translated works abroad still..
A very few titles do exactly this (DANMACHI or maybe SAO for example in print, Dr. Stone and The Tower of God as anime) but overall it's entirely not practical- it's an expense without a known return on investment
I think that as fans we need to keep in mind that the Japanese publishing industry is largely centered on the domestic market. Very few works have widespread popularity (even in Japan), very few get anime renditions, not every anime is popular in Japan or one's popular in Japan become popular overseas...and which titles become popular (in Japan or overseas) is not always a known quantity while the light novels are being published in Japan. If a series does become very popular (like Re:Zero) that makes it more valuable, publishers can demand more $$ for licensing the work.
Fan translating a popular title like Re:Zero wouldn't be about promoting an obscure/unknown work. Or promoting Japanese light novels in general, it would be about making money at the expense of the creators of the work: Piracy
Why hasn't Yen Press or Seven Seas or JNC or whoever translated Re:Zero yet? I don't know. Maybe it's too expensive to get the rights to do so, Maybe it's in the works and not yet released, maybe to publisher just more focused on the domestic market and not the West. Maybe they don't want to risk taking it on if the pirated copies are readily available for free/nearly free
what disreputable fan translation sites do is cherry pick, go and pick titles that have already proven to be in demand and translate those (or steal/re-post translations done by someone else) regardless of license. and figure out a way to monetize the process
what reputable fan translation sites do is raise awareness about light novels in general, promote titles that otherwise would be overlooked or that they have determined are unlikely to get official/licensed translations in the near future ---walking an ethical tightrope. They might have dedicated hard working folks that do the work without reward...only to see their work taken down at the request of the original author or copyright holder, or they might get praise, thanks, and recognition from those same authors for promoting the titles.
I (personally) don't think it's about a zero sum game. I think it's about a complex exercise in figuring out what the market will bear, and investing limited resources to get those products to market that will be in demand.
Piracy is about exploiting that demand that was created by someone else's work and monetizing it, regardless of if that harms the creators of the content or the market as a whole.
I'm not pointing fingers at @setite-0 with the following statement- but I don't want to create a separate post,
I'm weary of some folks who hold the belief that 'I want what I want and it isn't fair that it costs $x.xx, (or isn't yet available right now) so I'm justified in getting it via napster or a torrent, or whatever because or reasons' , especially in those cases where legitimate avenues are available. It's the morality that toddlers have, and should grow out of.
I read banned books
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@Jon-Mitchell said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
napster
You're dating yourself xD
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@myskaros said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
@Jon-Mitchell said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
napster
You're dating yourself xD
yea, I'm old.
The ethical 'justification' for napster is the same that is used by those the frequent piracy sites. Napster and piracy of music radically changed the industry. In some ways for the better, in many ways for the worse. Yes, I can get whatever track I want on iTunes for $0.99 but I can't go to a concert (before COVID) for less than the cost of a week's wages anymore. Live music (in the past) was a way to promote album sales---now it's the primary source of income for many bands Apple/YouTube/Pandora etc do not pay the artists very much -
@Jon-Mitchell said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
Why hasn't Yen Press or Seven Seas or JNC or whoever translated Re:Zero yet? I don't know.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but just to be clear, Yen Press is publishing Re:Zero in English. 13 volumes are available right now. I do know the Japanese release is ahead of that, and that the pace of the release bothers some people. I'd like to add, though, that vis-à-vis an earlier comment about "a plethora of side story content," three of the Re:Zero EX volumes are currently available in English, with the fourth one coming out this month. (There are some short story collections that haven't been published in English. I can't speak to that.)
I do want to point out that one reason it takes time to release things in English is that translation requires effort! Re:Zero, for example, is an exceptionally dense series of novels. It takes time to translate and produce them. I'm not saying there's no possible discussion to have about if and how the publishing processes of the print industry could be streamlined, but please realize that calling for huge amounts of content ("all 50 volumes") to be released in short order is to imply a lack of interest in the well-being of the translators, editors, proof-readers, and other people involved in the production process.
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@Kevin-S I could amend my post to read "why haven't all 50 volumes of " etc
I both appreciate your points about the complexities and value that a professional translation/editorial staff bring to the table (and I personally feel that JNC does a wonderful job and I appreciate your work...and buy it)
I haven't been reading Re:Zero so I was unaware of how much was in print...I apologize if I implied any lack of recognition for the hard/high quality work that professionals do.
It is ethically questionable to read fan translations of series currently licensed and being translated, if one does so, they are by definition supporting piracy and harming not only the copyright holders but those individuals who's livelihood is producing professional translations. If you want professional translations to continue you can't feed the pirates. To those that feel they are being translated too slowly, bring your concerns to Yen Press or whoever is publishing in English
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@Jon-Mitchell
I'm sorry if my post sounded a bit aggressive. Other than the specific remarks about the publication of Re:Zero, it wasn't aimed at you. I was looking more at some of the earlier posts, especially the one from @setite-0, and responding to that. I do appreciate your kind words and your support of this site and the industry. Hope you'll keep enjoying (and legitimately obtaining! XD) the work we do here. -
@Jon-Mitchell Also, the fall of Kissanime made me miss a lot of stuff, as I don't like the way my other Provider (AnimeFLV with subs in Spanish) handles its video, especially on the smart TV
