How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry
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@jon-mitchell said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
Piracy sites and the bad reputation that fan translations can have in the industry are driven by those who don’t care, or choose not to support legal routes (and the reason why some favorite/often requested titles will not see licensing in the foreseeable future)
What piracy are we talking about specifically? I just want to get the definition. If Yen Press releases a light novel and somebody uploads it for free to the internet, that is piracy.
If a person is translating a web novel and takes donations for it, that is not piracy as the web novel is freely available on syosetu anyway. And we all know that you technically can't sue google translate.
If a person is buying Japanese light novel and translating it while that light novel is licensed for English release, well, that is a different story. It does not happen that frequently, but some group are notorious for translating licensed light novels. I would not call it piracy in the true sense. But it does step into the licencors territory and a company can take legal action against them for distributing material they have rights to.
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Personally I have enough LNs that I love that are being translated professionally to not really use fan translations at all (I want to support authors, publishers and also like to read quality translations - machine translations kill a little bit of my brain to read).
I think the greatest negative effect to the industry is the likelihood of getting certain completed great series brought over that could do well for a company. Date A Live for example probably would be coming out without fan tls.
That said I think for being able to suss out the viability of new series, fan translations do free market research for companies and so allows them to try out certain things they might not otherwise. So that’s a gain.
Overall, I’d guess there’d be more money in publishing if the internet didn’t exist, but since it does I’d say fan translations probably do the industry more good than ill.
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@zing
Complicated question, often not easy to answer.
Webnovels are a different animal as often the intention of the author is for it to be freely available in order to get feedback or to promote themselves or a series (or whatever other reason they have)Reposting licensed/published works (in whatever language) often is piracy (which may be sometimes tolerated by a copyright holder and most often not)
As consumers it is our responsibility to make the effort to adopt a personal policy that supports the artists and not support exploitation by pirates.
There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch
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@jon-mitchell said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
Complicated question, often not easy to answer.
Webnovels are a different animal as often the intention of the author is for it to be freely available in order to get feedback or to promote themselves or a series (or whatever other reason they have)As long as we agree that fan translation of web novels is not piracy.
Reposting licensed/published works (in whatever language) often is piracy (which may be sometimes tolerated by a copyright holder and most often not)
As consumers it is our responsibility to make the effort to adopt a personal policy that supports the artists and not support exploitation by pirates.As I mentioned earlier, I believe that those who pirate something are most likely the people who would not have bought your product even if the pirated version was not available.
There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch
That is true, but here is a question that I've been struggling with for a while. If j-novel is publishing a light novel that I have absolutely zero interest in reading, do I still buy it to support j-novel or do i donate my money to a fan translation group that is translating a web novel I am currently reading.
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@zing Whatever your definition of "piracy" is, translating a web novel and distributing it without the author's permission is still illegal. Something doesn't have to cost money for copyright to take affect.
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@zing said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
If a person is translating a web novel and takes donations for it, that is not piracy as the web novel is freely available on syosetu anyway. And we all know that you technically can't sue google translate.
My understanding is that in many jurisdictions you could sue someone for posting a Google translation of a web novel or other piece of creative content even the original work is made available for free online. This is because material can be published for free without granting permission to copy or publish derivative works.
Stay shiny, y'all.
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@zing said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
That is true, but here is a question that I've been struggling with for a while. If j-novel is publishing a light novel that I have absolutely zero interest in reading, do I still buy it to support j-novel or do i donate my money to a fan translation group that is translating a web novel I am currently reading.
Nah, the market is not a charity, you don't have to force yourself doing something you don't like, just put the money where it can benefit you. And a market based on that kind of charity behavior is not a stable market anyway. That's why the streaming and subscription-based model of JNC is so clever, you have a lot of chance to try new series while not having to commit seriously; and in this case you are supporting JNC happily instead of doing it grudgingly through a series you have no interest in.
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Fan translations of Web Novels, with the original author's permission, I see no issue with. But they should be getting permission, at least.
For actual published LNs, fan translations might help build a fan base, but how many people don't buy the official release because there is already a suitable, possibly further along fan translation for free? Both arguments are valid, so it comes down to numbers, something none of us probably have. Only the English localization companies could (and probably won't) speak to actual numbers. Although JNC has commented specifically on passing on certain titles due to significant fan translation, and that only hurts everyone.
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@shiny said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
My understanding is that in many jurisdictions you could sue someone for posting a Google translation of a web novel or other piece of creative content even the original work is made available for free online. This is because material can be published for free without granting permission to copy or publish derivative works.
Doesn't this essentially make Google's "translate a webpage" feature illegal as well? (Note that I'm not arguing or saying you're wrong or anything, I just think it's a really important question about what circumstances make translation of something which is freely available illegal.)
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@hosikuzu I used to work at a law firm that does some IP law, I kept my ears open when people talked shop but I’m not a lawyer so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.
Google Translate isn’t illegal, it is simply a tool by which people can machine translate websites with original light novel works. With that you are keeping the material in its original home just translating what’s there. What becomes illegal is taking the story out of its native habitat (the source site) and posting it elsewhere.
Unquestionably illegal and most likely considered piracy in the eyes of the law is then charging for a translation of currently in copy-write material. Whether you like it or not I think you’d be hard pressed to win if you were to actually go to courts with that.
You can argue morality all day long but from a legal perspective that is definitely not legal and likely viewed as piracy.
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@zing said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
I still buy it to support j-novel or do i donate my money to a fan translation group that is translating a web novel I am currently reading
you have to decide your personal policy
I support J novel with my membership (there's a separate thread about that)
a fan translation group soliciting donations is a shade of grey darker than my comfort zone, I'd find a way to support the author (if you feel that you want/need to)
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I'm not sure how to feel about fan translations. I discover a lot of series through them that I can then suggest to publishers like Jnovelclub or Seven seas. But I guess the fact that people are translating them for free does hurt the industry in some way. But sometimes companies pick up series because so many people like a certain series thats being fan translated. If I do see a company has put out a book I like I do try my best to support them in whatever way I can. I guess it depends on how you look at things cause there are a lot of things to factor in when it comes to the anime and light novel industry.
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@hosikuzu said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
@shiny said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
My understanding is that in many jurisdictions you could sue someone for posting a Google translation of a web novel or other piece of creative content even the original work is made available for free online. This is because material can be published for free without granting permission to copy or publish derivative works.
Doesn't this essentially make Google's "translate a webpage" feature illegal as well? (Note that I'm not arguing or saying you're wrong or anything, I just think it's a really important question about what circumstances make translation of something which is freely available illegal.)
As @the-green-death noted Google Translate is a tool and does not publish anything, so it would be the one who used that tool (and took the 'volitional act') that would be liable for any copyright infringement if they published the translated material for which they had no right to copy (copyright).
Just because someone is making something freely available does not mean they are granting others permission to make copies of that work. If anyone could copy web novels then we could expect to see loads of companies printing copies of these web novels without permission from the author, but that isn't happening. Unless authorised by the copyright holder simply copying and pasting a web novel onto a different website could be copyright infringement. If someone is not authorised to make copies of something, it stands to reason that they do not become authorised simply because they (or a machine) translated it into another language
You ask about "the circumstances make translation of something which is freely available illegal". It is important to distinguish between 'free' as in beer (gratis) and 'free' as in liberty (libre). A typical web novel is being given away without charge (gratis), but there are conditions on distribution and so it is not free in the libre sense. Specifically, users are not automatically granted the right to make copies, translations or derivative works of the web novel simply because they were allowed to view it on a website without paying a viewing fee. Similarly, just because J-Novel Club posts previews of many of their novels (and have periods where entire novels are temporarily made available for free) does not give people the right to post those previews on their website or to translate them into different languages.
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@zing said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
or do i donate my money to a fan translation group that is translating a web novel I am currently reading.
Donate to the author directly because he or she actually wrote the original material. Or buy one of their published books in Japanese. Then you're actually supporting the industry. Donating to a fan group does nothing except reward someone for breaking the law.
Whoever said nothing's impossible never tried slamming a revolving door.
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@myskaros Just to add - "buy one of their published books in Japanese" really only supports the author/publisher if you buy NEW books.
Used books are a big thing in Japan, but they don't support the author or publisher.
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@someoldguy I assumed everyone already knew that used anything doesn't support anyone but the secondhand industry, but yes, new only, or ebooks.
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@artistofmanga said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
But I guess the fact that people are translating them for free does hurt the industry in some way
I don't think that hobbyists are hurting the industry so much as (for profit) aggregate sites that post other peoples' work (without attribution oftentimes)
DRM wouldn't be as much of a thing if torrent sites weren't such a thing
I subscribe to a anime provider (2 actually) because I like anime (and it's the right thing to do, the way I get my money to the artists - so that they still make anime)
I subscribe to JNC, and buy other ebooks at retail for the same reason. I have read Fan translations at Baka Tsuki and a couple of other places - but find that there isn't that much that I have time for that isn't available via 'regular' channels (I may read a translation but later make sure to buy the ebook when it becomes available. Fan Translations don't get any of my $$$)
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@myskaros said in How much do you think fan translations hurt the industry:
Donating to a fan group does nothing except reward someone for breaking the law.
If you're reading fan translations then you're breaking the law too. It's wildly hypocritical to think that you're somehow above rewarding them for the work they did.
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@hosikuzu Copyright law does not state anywhere that you cannot read material that breaks copyright law, but that you cannot distribute translations without permission. Even still, there are degrees of law breaking/delinquent behavior, the "in for a penny, in for a pound" argument is very fallible. Even more still, let's say reading it did break a law, that in and of itself doesn't reward the illegal translators directly, giving them money does.
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I would say in a certain way could fan translation hurt the profit. But not as much as many think. Sure there are always people that try to get something without paying for them. And a fan translation would be one way to get this.
But...
And now I am getting to this point from my standpoint. For me it even upped the amount of books I buy. I certainly bought books where I read the fan translation which I would have else left on the shelves. Be it because the premises are not to my liking or simply not knowing about it. I make a point to buy the series I like. Sure I am also reading fan translations but those are only for things which are not available in english, german, spanish or dutch. Even if the fan translation is superb (yeah I look at Overlord and go) I still buy the physical releases of them although I have the digital fan translation. As said this is my standpoint.
