How to Build a Harem
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I'm going to expand a little on Outbreak Co.
as of the time of writing this, the JNC translation/prepub of Outbreak is in the first few parts of Volume 12, and we have a harem situation coming to a head
the protagonist (moderately clueless, but becoming more self-aware, and traumatized from a previous love confession gone awry when he was a otaku teen--now he's a otaku adult with some self esteem issues)
Shinichi now knows that several girls harbor feelings for him, and he's infatuated with at least one of them (and is at least friendly with the rest) ---The 'sit' in the current 'sitcom' is preventing the political marriage of one of the haremettes
here's where my frustration lies:
we are about 2/3 thru the series, I'm speculating that the current situation will not result in the protagonist marrying the empress (what would the other 6 volumes be about??)-- the author has skillfully 'reset' the status quo in each volume (pretty much) and that's what drives me nuts -- the status quo is made of iron. The protagonist at this point should be further along in his relationship with one or more of the girls. He is aware of (at least some) of their affections, he could go on a date. He could go on a date with more than one (at once - and they'd be fine with it) He could have a serious conversation with one or more about their feelings, about how he can (or can't, or has difficulty) respond to those feelings - but we don't see that, so that we can maintain the episodic nature of the volumes, and maintain the status quo (where the protagonist is insecure/conflicted/and does not act)
if I read volume 18 and we're still here....I'm gonna loose it
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@paul-nebeling Reluctant absolutely yes, in part because of trauma and in part because shes so so way out of what he perceives as his league at the beginning. The point I was making is that his lust never makes him forget their needs and feelings.
This is epitomized by his reaction to Riser Phoenix's treatment of his own harem andThe worst thing about Touya and his harem in Smartphone is that he doesn't appear to put any time into spending time with them. He never thinks to invite them on adventures (which is horribly dismissive of their individual and collective abilities). Nor does he hang with them at home in any meaningful way.
Regarding Shinichi, I agree he better make some progress after this.
I can see why bringing up the subject is really hard for him though. His first confession would have been massively less traumatic if the girl shutting him down for being a 'nastyotaku' had not been a childhood friend. And his parents really should have explained to Mysel and Petralka that the were going to need to be clear and direct in expressing their own feelings cause he wasnt going to take a hint. (Minori could help bridge the communication gap but she doesn't wana')
The epitome of bad harem construction is probably some thing like Skill Taker which basically treats the girls like Pokemon, with a protagonist centered morality that treats the MCs sexual harassment as fine but everyone else's unforgivable.
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What really annoys me with Smartphone's approach to harems is that the author actually had an interesting concept behind the harem: each girl is one of the nine types on the Enneagram of Personality. This could actually be a really cool concept which looks at how each of those different personality types approaches romances and how they deal with problems and grow in different ways. The potential as a character and personality study here is huge. Unfortunately, it's pretty clear that that's not what Smartphone's author is interested in with his story...
MAL
Beneath the Tangles (the blog I write for) -
@stardf29 That would have been very interesting to read especially if it was replicated with twists in the gynoids. I am not very familiar with the engram personality theory. I am surprised that there was enough personality in there for you to sort them.
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@steelblaidd The author explicitly said he based each of the girls on the Enneagram types in one of the bonus columns in the vol. 10 premium ebook.
MAL
Beneath the Tangles (the blog I write for) -
@steelblaidd said in How to Build a Harem:
Regarding Shinichi, I agree he better make some progress after this.
Oh, absolutely. I got the impression that even Garius wasn't too terribly upset, possibly even pleased, by that little performance. Petralka, on the other hand, was the picture of "Methinks the lady doth protest too much." I can totally see her refusing to proceed with any sort of relationship with the prince just to "protect" Shinichi from being tempted by those large busted women. In short, he just pulled the pin on a grenade and the explosion is going to be hilarious.
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@stardf29 I can't say he did a very good job. With 9 different personality types at least one of them ought to be leaning into the physical side of their relationship.
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Last part of Ragnarok (Volume 10) has an element that I feel is worth pointing out: consequences. Yuuto has guilt/is conflicted about consummating his relationship with Felicia, even though Mitsuki gave him the final push/ encouragement to proceed. And they have to deal with the aftermath. Yuuto asked for advice from friends he trusts on how to deal with his feelings and eventually all 3 of them seem to get to a happy place. I suspect that next time it’ll go smoother ( in for a penny, in for a pound)
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@steelblaidd I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. I know people really like their snu snu but personally I think the focus on sex and the physical relationship can become too much of a crutch that hides what is actually a badly-written relationship. Likewise I am against the idea that a fictional romance cannot be compelling without a physical relationship.
For me, the more important part is actual character writing. This can be standard development: the character having flaws and issues they must overcome, and how their relationships affect that. If that is there, I'm not going to care much if there's no real physical relationship within the main story (though it would be nice). There's other ways to write good characters that can make up for a lack of physical intimacy, though that's a big subject in its own right.
At any rate, the real issue is that Smartphone simply doesn't have good character writing, which of course makes the lack of physical intimacy even more glaring, though even if it were there it'd be pretty hollow to me.
And on the actual Enneagram side, it's worth noting that sexual desire is not really tied to any of the nine types in particular; instead, each type can further be associated with one of three "instincts": self-preservation, one-on-one relationships, and group relationships. The one-on-one relationship instinct is mostly connected with physical intimacy; the others, not as much.
MAL
Beneath the Tangles (the blog I write for) -
I have to say I really don't know where I come down on the harems, in general.
Realist Hero, each relationship started with "need". Liscia, because there needed to be a tie to the royal bloodline (even though timelines complicate that). Aisha needed to show her loyalty to Souma. Souma needed Juna's talent to pull the nation together. Roroa needed to protect her people. Naden and Souma were a "set" before they even knew it.
You could say that others in his group had the same things happen to them, such as Ruby getting added to Hal's family because they needed each other.
Smartphone actually seems to play on the harem primarily for comedy, more than anything else. The relationship with Linze was fairly normal, and headed down the girlfriend route, until Yumina came along and added marriage to the equation, and dragged Elze and Yae along.
Arifureta... The harem builds because he's got a bunch of crazy people around him. :)
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@stardf29 I agree that far too often sex is substituted for relationships, both in fiction and real life, I just find it odd that given a deliberate choice to explore different personality types that they all seam to respond in the same way to his putting off what everyone else in the world considers the natural progression of his engagements.
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@raitoiro said in How to Build a Harem:
What do we define as harem tho?
Because If we decide that a story just need multiple character to be in love with the MC then a lot of series can be categorized as Harem even stuff like "Grimgar", "The faraway Paladin" or "Infinite Dendrogram".
But if we limit it to story where the MC is clearly in an open relationship with multiple characters then series like "Infinite Stratos", "I save too many girl" and "Lazy Dungeon master" wouldn't qualify.That’s a fake harem... a true harem is where there is at least FTB intimate relations between them.
I think the largest problem is the market, most of the Japanese fans want their waifu’s to be pure untouched... so it doesn’t affect the popularity of a series.
What am I reading?
0) Bookworm-
Seirei Gensouki
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Realist Hero
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Wortenia Senki
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D-Genesis
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Arifureta
Waiting for catchup to fantran -
By The Grace of Gods
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Ideal Sponger Life
Complete
- Fushi no Kami
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@thomask I have heard of the untouched bs concerning idole fan but I'm not sure it's as much of a problem in LN.
Some LN fans likely do want the girls to be pure virgin and all that bs when they are introduced, but I thinks most wouldn't care if the MC has his way with them, especially since most of the series aims at that demographic have self-insert MC.Do you like death, war and misery ?
Do you like badass op loli who let nobody got in their way ?
Do you like vengeance story?
If so then then vote for The girl who ate a death god -
@raitoiro said in How to Build a Harem:
especially since most of the series aims at that demographic have self-insert MC.
I'm not sure where the line is, but at some point in the past LN's had rating systems (for age) and if an author/publisher wanted to sell the the perceived target demographic, (11-16 year old boys) they had to keep the naughty stuff out, or risk the book not being on display in the section of the store where it was likely to sell best. (I'm going back in time here, think 1980's-90's)
More recently, I believe the rating system is somewhat different and stories can be somewhat more mature /realistic (relationship wise) and not risk 18+ tags (some of this was self censorship by publishers, I don't know why heroes had to be chaste, and holding hands was such a big deal, but at least with Anime, the realities of teenager/high schooler sex are addressed more frankly in recent years - 2 examples that come to mind (that have nothing to do with each other, other than accepting that sex among teenagers is a 'given' : Domestic Girlfriend and School Days) Ironically it seems that self play/ 'using' pornography is more frankly accepted in a wider number of titles (It seems a common trope that a boy must hide his 'treasures' before someone comes to visit)
Thematic Inertia is a thing (I guess) and I still see/read many titles where everyone is chaste, holding hands (or a kiss) is a really big deal (maybe I'm missing cultural allusions/metaphors for something else, because nudity and fondling apparently doesn't count as sexual activity?!)
regardless - sorry for meandering, my point is that in my opinion, I don't believe that sexual relations is necessary for a harem to be 'real'. If the protagonist dates, is 'more than friends', or is intimate (hello Mixed Bathing) with multiple characters that would potentially be 'partners' in a relationship way. What makes it a harem is the being more than a couple (2) and doing things that couples would do
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@jon-mitchell said in How to Build a Harem:
What makes it a harem is the being more than a couple (2) and doing things that couples would do
I think that makes a good working definition.
I understand executive order is why Isse in DxD keeps getting shut down.
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@Jon-Mitchell I agree with @steelblaidd about your definition, but would take the number to greater than 3. I just can't see a "harem" with only 3 people. I would just call that a love triangle.
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I think you need to add another rule: that the “spokes” are okay with the MC being involved with the others in the harem. That would make it distinct from a true love triangle (where both of the others want the MC to themselves).
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@hamsterexastris
I disagree, plenty of situations in LN/anime/manga where the spokes either are unaware of each other’s interest or in competition -
@jon-mitchell Then that’s not a harem yet, I don’t feel.
