Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.

Windsagio

@kuali That seems likely, although it's also harder with the slightly-less infamous "Nao looking backward pensively holding onto his destroyed spear" pic.

HarmlessDave

@BartzBB said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

b. the author decides and describes the scene to be drawn
c. the editor decides and describes the scene to be drawn

I've seen B mentioned in afterwords so the author making requests and the editor making the final decisions seems likely to me.

Working from rough drafts or even the webnovel also seems likely since many authors have mentioned barely making their deadlines or even needing extensions. My guess is they don't have time to wait and start on the art at that point they need it finished and included in the page count.

unknownmat

@Folker46 said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

I'd have to say time crunching. In too many LN, everything is happening in just a few weeks or months.

Good point. This is especially egregious in series where the characters need to go through major growth - such as physical training, or a mindset revision. People just don't change over weeks or months. It's not really believable that a character can go from zero to demonlord slayer in a few months. I'm currently noticing this in Black Summoner, where the protagonist's personal growth compared with that of the other characters in-world makes no real sense. Yes, he gets double points, but I suspect the author doesn't really understand the difference between linear vs exponential growth curves... the protagonist's growth should be a linear factor improvement, but the growth being described is exponential. This really cheapens his victories, and makes the rest of the in-world characters seem incompetent.

I guess one point of contrast here is that I think Kouki from Arifureta gets a lot of unfair criticism due to a failure of readers to take time crunching into account. The story only takes place over a few months and there just isn't enough time for him to become the better person he needs to become - and thus the inevitable tragedy.

Folker46

Maybe it's just me but I'll getting pretty sick of OP characters. Power fantasies are one thing but when it reaches a ridicules level it's not fun to read. Plus, there seem to be an increase in the LNs that hate on isekai characters, even making them out to be evil troublemakers who need to die. I can see someone who was a nobody going mad with power but when you say EVERY isekai will go crazy I just feel offended. There are just too many LNs being printed that are poorly written, have a bad concept, and are just boring as hell.

kuali

@Folker46 said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

Maybe it's just me but I'll getting pretty sick of OP characters. Power fantasies are one thing but when it reaches a ridicules level it's not fun to read.

Eh, they're not everyone's cup of tea.

Personally, I find a series with an OP protagonist that just concentrates on how OP they are will get boring after a while - but that's less a problem with the OP-ness, and more the repetitiveness. Such series can keep themselves interesting a lot longer if they mix up their fare a little - some bits where the protag gets to show off, some bits where they have to fight with their brains instead of the brawn, some bits where they're shoved face to face with moral quandries or no-win situations, some situations where their powers won't or shouldn't be used, and a sprinkling of villains on (or above) their own power level, just to keep things interesting.

Kinda like what Superman's been doing to stay in publication since my grandparents were young...

@Folker46 said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

Plus, there seem to be an increase in the LNs that hate on isekai characters, even making them out to be evil troublemakers who need to die. I can see someone who was a nobody going mad with power but when you say EVERY isekai will go crazy I just feel offended.

How many of those series do you know of? The only one I can think of offhand is The Executioner and Her Way of Life...

spoiler

GeorgeMTO

@kuali said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

How many of those series do you know of? The only one I can think of offhand is The Executioner and Her Way of Life...

Instant Death is another

Folker46

@kuali I've been told I should give it another try but every time I try to watch it, I just get angry. I've been toying with the idea of writing a fanfic based on the idea but... well I suck at writing. I may watch it some day and I might find it enjoyable but not now.

kuali

@Folker46 If its not your thing, its not your thing. Admittedly, I haven't watched the anime either (wasn't willing to sign up to another streaming service for it), so for all I know, it takes the worst parts of the novels and just doubles down on all of them.

And even for the novels, I'd class them more as an 'acquired taste' than a 'recommend freely'.

TopChop12

One thing I find difficult with light novels is that if you want a fantasy series, it's an isekai. Sometimes I just want to read a good fantasy, and there are some good ones out there. However, even with some of those good ones, they made the protagonist come from Earth just because isekai is a popular genre. When you go to a site like BOOK☆WALKER to get a fantasy light novel, over half of the books on the first page are isekai, with a few more mountains in the remaining pages.

Another thing I have an issue with is how 95% of isekai seems to be your typical fantasy world. I'd love to see some sci-fi isekai, like I'm the Evil Lord of an Intergalactic Empire! or if it is fantasy, maybe some post-isekai stories, like Isekai Rebuilding Project.

*TL;DR: I want to see some pure fantasy, and more than fantasy in the isekai genre.

Geezer Weasalopes

Something to bear in mind is Sturgeon's Law.

There really is a lot of bad fiction out there.
Not to mention bad cover art...

In re illustrations for Light Novels:

I'm actually amazed at how often the artwork matches the text.
It stands to reason that the artist doesn't have access to the finished text.
That they commence work somewhat early on in the production cycle for each volume.
And the whole question of who gives them their instructions.

It does seem that in a number of cases the author does have some level of input, as mentioned in various afterwards where they thank the artist for pandering to aspects of their requests.
And there are very clear instances where the author practically worships at the feet of the illustrator due to how much they feel their illustrations added to the story.

How much of the time the style of illustration matches the feel of the story also never ceases to amaze.

But, yes, sometimes the illustration just doesn't line up properly with the scene, and that causes a break in immersion.
Which is bad if other than that you were going through the story increasingly oblivious to everything around you.

Which leads to my pet peeve:
Authors who don't know the hell what they are talking about.
Where they go on in great detail about something... and they are 1000% wrong.
I find this especially repugnant if its the focus of the story, at least in theory.
It's one thing if they do stuff using magic, because, well, magic.
But where they use magic to supplement, to assist, to reduce the physical workload, but otherwise claim what they are doing matches Real World technology... and get the real world tech completely wrong.
I can't deal with that.
I just can't.
It'll make me drop a story faster than pretty much anything else.

pinkgrapefruit22

Something that really frustrates me is the refusal to include same-sex attraction in non-yuri/BL titles. It especially bothers me in series with otherwise very realistic and detailed world building, like Bookworm. The more realistic every other aspect of the story feels, the more glaring of an omission it becomes. Like, I'm supposed to believe that in a cast of literally hundreds of characters from all different walks of life, with a variety of unique backgrounds and personalities, many of whose POVs we get to see the world from, not a single one of them is attracted to people of the same sex? It's just one of those things that once you notice it, you can't un-notice it, and it really takes me out of the story.

unknownmat

Couple of interesting observations.

@Folker46 said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

Maybe it's just me but I'll getting pretty sick of OP characters. Power fantasies are one thing but when it reaches a ridicules level it's not fun to read.

I like OP characters because it shifts the focus of the story. When done well it allows the story to be about everything else besides the strength of the protagonist. It can be used as a mechanism for taking a leisurely stroll though a chaotic landscape, which is often exactly what I'm looking for - it gives me time to think about and appreciate everything else about the world that makes it work. By contrast, I get really bored of reading 10+ page descriptions of fights when you already know that there is no chance the protagonist is going to lose or come out any worse for the wear. Unless there is some real tangible character-growth needed to push the plot forward, I just don't care.

That said, when done poorly, such as when the OP character is played straight or when the plot is focused on defeating the bad-guy or saving the world or whatever, then I agree that it can get pretty boring pretty quickly.

Plus, there seem to be an increase in the LNs that hate on isekai characters, even making them out to be evil troublemakers who need to die. I can see someone who was a nobody going mad with power but when you say EVERY isekai will go crazy I just feel offended. There are just too many LNs being printed that are poorly written, have a bad concept, and are just boring as hell.

I'm surprised there aren't more stories like this. It seems like such an obvious angle to explore. OP otherworlders are a huge wildcard who - even when actively benevolent - can massively destabilize the status quo. Almost any ruling body in history would choose to just eliminate them. And even if not outright executed, there would surely be massive anti-isekai bias in the population (ala. X-Men).

In Leadale, for example, the OP protagonist is treated like a natural disaster. Although it's usually played for laughs - "Oh no! Don't get her angry or else she'll wipe the town off the map" - it's really not that funny when you consider how possible that actually is. All that would be required would be for her to be even a bit less good-natured, or be having a really bad day, or something.

unknownmat

@pinkgrapefruit22 said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

Something that really frustrates me is the refusal to include same-sex attraction in non-yuri/BL titles. It especially bothers me in series with otherwise very realistic and detailed world building, like Bookworm. The more realistic every other aspect of the story feels, the more glaring of an omission it becomes. Like, I'm supposed to believe that in a cast of literally hundreds of characters from all different walks of life, with a variety of unique backgrounds and personalities, many of whose POVs we get to see the world from, not a single one of them is attracted to people of the same sex? It's just one of those things that once you notice it, you can't un-notice it, and it really takes me out of the story.

Interesting. I have a few thoughts:

You're probably right that same-sex relationships are underrepresented in Japanese media. I really can't think of a single instance myself in any of the LNs that I follow, which does seem unrealistic. That said, I sometimes feel like same-sex relationships are over-represented in modern Western media. Consider that, even in a large cast, only a handful of characters will ever get enough screen-time for us to learn anything substantial about their love lives. There are good odds that a randomly sampled group of 5-10 individuals won't include any in a same-sex relationship.
I think Bookworm is a bad example because marriage in-universe has little to do with personal preference or love, and public displays of affection are repressed to an extent that parents won't even hug their children. In other words, even if an individual character might prefer a same-sex relationship, there is a good chance that readers would never know about it.
But speaking of Bookworm, and sexuality, and things that once seen can never be unseen ... I've noted separately in the Bookworm forums how odd it is that grey-priests aren't producing little priestlets left-and-right. There's just no way you could convince me that hundreds of hormonal teenagers cooped up together all day won't get up to any hanky panky. Personally, since I have no interest in teenage relationship drama, it's an aspect of the society that I'm happy the author chose not to explore... but nevertheless I can't help to notice it every once in a while by its deafening absence.

Baka_Neko

@pinkgrapefruit22 oh are you saying that roz isn't bi you know that is bi erasure right? /jk
All jokes aside until her heart goes doki for someone I will continue to believe roz is booksexual

Windsagio

This discussion made me think of an obsession I had a while ago -- tagging LN's

Isekai/Non Isekai
OP protagonist/Stealth OP protagonist/Weak protagonist
etc.

I had a whole ton of categories and tags, most of which I've sadly forgotten now.

Edit: So say Smartphone is an "OP Isekai harem Fantasy" where bookworm is a "Weak Isekai themed Fantasy" etc

Edit2: I just remembered, there was of course also "reverse Isekai"

kuali

@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

You're probably right that same-sex relationships are underrepresented in Japanese media. I really can't think of a single instance myself in any of the LNs that I follow, which does seem unrealistic. That said, I sometimes feel like same-sex relationships are over-represented in modern Western media. Consider that, even in a large cast, only a handful of characters will ever get enough screen-time for us to learn anything substantial about their love lives. There are good odds that a randomly sampled group of 5-10 individuals won't include any in a same-sex relationship.

It was an interesting question, so I looked some figures up: The UK's Office of National Statistics publishes annual figures on sexual orientation in the UK. The last figures (data collected in 2020, published this year) say the British Population is:
93.6% Heterosexual
3.1% Lesbian, Gay or Bisexual
3.3% Other or Refused to Answer

That said, the numbers for LGB people are higher in typical Japanese Protagonist ages - ~8% of 16-24 year olds.

@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

But speaking of Bookworm, and sexuality, and things that once seen can never be unseen ... I've noted separately in the Bookworm forums how odd it is that grey-priests aren't producing little priestlets left-and-right. There's just no way you could convince me that hundreds of hormonal teenagers cooped up together all day won't get up to any hanky panky. Personally, since I have no interest in teenage relationship drama, it's an aspect of the society that I'm happy the author chose not to explore... but nevertheless I can't help to notice it every once in a while by its deafening absence.

Ultimately, I think the in-universe reason for that is pretty simple - before Rozemyne took over, Bezewanst was having all the pregnant grey shrine maidens killed. Those that survived either have some kind of working contraceptive... no interest in the opposite gender... or are just too scared of the consequences to fool around without a Blue Priest being involved...

Windsagio

@kuali Also, priests are priests. At least one Blue Shrine maiden got exiled for getting too frisky (or more likely pregnant), so it's extremely likely that sex is officially forbidden but the rule is ignored by the blue priests.

The Grey priests on the other hand are much more directly monastic and don't have any noble upbringing so they're closer to the rules.

KopiCAT

@Rahul-Balaggan said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

Every single fighting scene, in any Light Novel.

Just a personal thing, but no matter what LN it has been, any fighting scene with actual details on the fight are not my cup of tea.

I enjoy scenes like, “and then I beat them to a pulp” or, “and then they beat me to a pulp”.

I agree fully with this. I just can't get into action scenes in the written form. I skim or skip all of them. Especially the fighting ones. They belong on the screen.

unknownmat

@kuali said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

93.6% Heterosexual
3.1% Lesbian, Gay or Bisexual
3.3% Other or Refused to Answer

Yeah, this corresponds to the numbers that I found. I will say to that - as an older person - it's just not something that comes up day-to-day in my experience. Mostly people's private lives are kept private and I have almost no idea who identifies as what. I guess this is why I don't find the omission from Japanese LNs to be all that glaring, and why seeing it mentioned so often in Western media feels excessive. Of course, this is only for non-protagonist characters who just aren't fleshed-out all that much. For protagonist characters, it does seem like we really ought to see a few more same-sex relationships. Roughly three or four out of every 100 series ought to have an LGBT protagonist, but the number seems to be way lower than that.

Ultimately, I think the in-universe reason for that is pretty simple - before Rozemyne took over, Bezewanst was having all the pregnant grey shrine maidens killed. Those that survived either have some kind of working contraceptive... no interest in the opposite gender... or are just too scared of the consequences to fool around without a Blue Priest being involved...

I guess the only way to know would be to ask the author, but to me this feels like a retroactive justification (like trying to justify the "kessel run in 12 parsecs" line as being anything other than an error). My strong suspicion is that the author just didn't want to deal with it. And this isn't without precedent - she admitted in one of the fanbooks that the dearth of incoming orphans during Myne's tenure wasn't realistic, but was just not something she wanted to focus on.

KopiCAT

@salientmind said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

@waterdweller this is actually very relevant, because in addition to sleeping together, all these harems live together.

Anyone whose had multiple roommates can tell you that maintaining a group environment without emotions/sex is difficult. Meanwhile Souma has a bunch of wives. Most of these harem series rely on an very competent "first wife" to effortlessly manage the rest.

There is a reason why an Empress was often considered the leader of the Harem. But seriously, these fictional harems are just so darn 'nice' it becomes too unrealistic. And any time any of them show signs of really wanting to rise to the forefront, it's almost depicted as evil behavior.

But what I dislike most about Harems is the fact that none of the ladies ever really goes against decisions made by the MC. It's like they are one and all just a bunch of 'yes girls'.

MC: "I wanna do this!"
Harem: "Yes my lord"
MC: "I wanna do that!"
Harem: "Yes my lord"

It's like they have zero agency other then to just support the MC in whatever he does.