Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.
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@Gamen I Want to Escape from Princess Lessons if you want the title that prompted my comment but also just in general as a basis for a story
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So I have one that will maybe be controversial: Honorifics! Or more specifically, when honorifics and their usage play a prominent and plot-relevant role at any point in the story (e.g. Where it becomes an actual point of discussion in-story). This one has crept up on me slowly after years of LN consumption.
Previously, I have been mostly neutral on the subject of honorifics. I viewed them as a vestigial reminder of the Japanese culture from which the work originated. I accept that they can be impossible to remove without butchering the work even though they don't really have the same significance to a foreign audience. This is also true for other tropes of Japanese media such as nose bleeds and bathing. It was with this apathy that I have mostly just raised my eyebrows in confusion over how strongly LN readers seem to feel about the inclusion/exclusion of honorifics in translated works.
But lately I've come to see excessive focus on the usage of honorifics to be a cheap substitute for actually depicting character development. Wading into yet another paragraphs-long morass of tedious negotiations over <first name>-san vs. <last name>-san just leaves me rolling my eyes and bored out of my mind. Maybe to a Japanese reader this negotiation would be a meaningful and important way to express character development. But to me, an American reader, it just comes off as a cheap way to avoid doing the hard work of actually constructing prose to show the distance between two characters. A well-written scene filled with awkward interactions and poorly received jokes is far more evocative than stubbornly insisting on a more "distant" form of address, for example.
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@unknownmat So the use of honorifics to do Tell, don't show on relationship statuses? Yeah, I can see how that could get irritating.
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@kuali said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:
So the use of honorifics to do Tell, don't show on relationship statuses? Yeah, I can see how that could get irritating.
Yeah, in summary that's basically it. I feel like this happens so often in LNs that it's nearly ubiquitous. It manifests in various ways, but to give some examples:
- A high-status characters will urge the main character to refer to them without honorifics, to which the protagonist will - after much boring and pointless hesitation - eventually consent to using some less-formal version of the name.
- Some overly obsequious character (often with ulterior motives) will repeatedly try to use an overly familiar version of the protagonist's name as a way to seem much closer than they have any right to be, only to be shut-down forcibly when the protagonist insists on keeping things ultra formal.
- etc.
I'm honestly uncertain the extent to which this is culturally appropriate in Japanese. But speaking as an English reader, it just comes off as lazy writing. Maybe the first time I encountered such a scene it might have felt like a refreshing way to indicate character relationships. But seeing it so much, it feels cliche and falls on the wrong side of the show vs. tell dichotomy. I guess my bigger issue is that it's also really boring - I just can't get invested in (i.e. I don't even kind of give a fuck about) minute differences in how two characters address each other.
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@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:
So I have one that will maybe be controversial: Honorifics!
Incidentally, and somewhat tertiary to the discussion, this topic was born in a Reddit discussion thread.
A Reddit user posted to congratulate Quof for being recognized by Miya Kazuki (she had Tweeted about receiving the English V4 physical volumes). And amidst all the positive words, like clockwork, some asshole felt that that would be the appropriate place to raise a complaint about the lack of honorifics in Bookworm. Out of the blue, I suddenly realized how happy I was that Bookworm avoided honorifics. And also that I'd apparently been subconsciously accumulating a great deal of antipathy towards the use of honorifics in translated media, in general.
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Finished So I’m a Spider So What.
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@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:
Why the hell are [all the non-JNC translation houses] so slow and opaque? I just got notification that the 19th volume of Deathmarch (an isekai series that I love beyond all rationality or ability to defend) is delayed yet again until September of this year! ... the translators are somehow losing ground to the author! ... Grr!!
Well, credit where credit is due...
I posted this in April of this year, and just yesterday volume 20 dropped on time without being pushed back at all! Thank you to Yen Press. This means that we're back up to three releases per year, hopefully! Delays have plagued this series for so long that I honestly didn't believe it would be released until it showed up on my Kindle last night, but show up it did. And I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. And now I'm looking forward to volume 21, which is scheduled for May next year. Crossing my fingers.
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@OtherOne said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:
Quoting spoiler text...
Yeah. The series started out really strong. The mixed-up timeline was an interesting way to tell the story, and I was genuinely invested in Kumoko's character growth. I even remained casually interested in the rest of the characters. But the last several volumes have just not landed at all. I'm happy that the series has finally wrapped up. Short of a complete re-write, I think it was time to put it out of its misery. At least we got a conclusion.
I started to lose interest after ...
After that point, I think her character stopped growing, and even regressed. I found her inner monologue with all of its half-lies and hesitancy and false-starts mind-numbingly dull. By the end I was mostly skipping over pages of the stuff just to see what finally happened. The one character that I remained interested in - Sophia - played only a minimal role in the rest of the story. Even her schooling arc, which could have been fun, was breezed through in a few short sentences.
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@unknownmat The tripling-down on the geist typo is grating, though.
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@Gamen I think I caught one of those misspelling. I did catch a number of other spelling and grammatical errors, but I just reported them through Kindle and kept reading. I wonder if quality suffers at a pace of three per year. But in book 16 there were two instances where they mixed up Baronet Jelil and Sir Juleberg. So it's not like the slower pace was more conducive to quality, either.
In fact, apropos to this forum, the relatively large number of proofreading errors in LNs is something that bothers me. It makes the end product seem much less professional. I'm not sure how larger publishers manage it. But I do think LN publishing, broadly, has a very noticeable proofreading problem.
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I'm not sure this quite qualifies based upon the initial post...but it impacts whether an otherwise acceptable series becomes less so.
Someone in their blinking thirties acting like they're one foot in the grave purely due to their age.
They're in good enough shape that no one younger than them is defeating them, there aren't any true signs that they've started into a decline, but damn near every other sentence has them tossing in some version of "for someone my age" in their internal monologue, and it makes it into their spoken dialogue and they totally ignore anything anyone else says concerning their ability being exceptional at any age....OK, the one that triggered this is From Old Country Bumpkin to Master Swordsman 'cause it's majorly guilty of this, but there are others as well.
I'm well aware that to some in their teens and twenties, thirty is one foot in the grave senile beyond all hope, but on the whole the only folks who think that way once they are in their thirties are detached from reality in other ways...or they really are in bad health and it's not their age that is the issue.
As someone in their early sixties who has always been chasing after folks slightly older than me...it's only because my body is deteriorating on me that I have anything interfering with my mental image of still being in my twenties.
When in my thirties I questioned if I was really an adult yet...(at times with good reason.)
It's played as a version of the Oblivious MC, or an additional aspect of a specific Oblivious MC.
A number of the Oblivious MC tropes I don't have a problem with, since I've been there myself, but this is one that always reeks of the author being damn young themselves.I don't have a problem with those who acknowledge their age and that they aren't as young as they once were, but still recognize their own ability.
Well, there's a related trope concerning those who don't have a full comprehension of their ability due to not having had anyone available for proper comparison for some time.
The MC in Bumpkin has a bit of that, but even when he is forced to notice how he measures up he finds ways of discounting it; someone really did a number on him psychologically at one point is all we can think.
Belgrieve in S-Rank Adventurer also doesn't consider himself that impressive, certainly not enough for such a chuuni moniker as The Red Ogre! (more properly, "My dad, *The Red Ogre!")
He's come to accept that he is skilled, but still thinks his daughter is blowing it out of proportion...her coming up with a name for him and publicizing it all over hasn't helped any, since he knows he hasn't done anything that would have resulted in his being given such a handle in the normal course of events.Both of these MCs are skilled at training others to excel. They've other similarities.
Bel may be older.
Bel's got a missing lower leg.
Bel's better adjusted concerning his abilities and how others in the trade look at him.All your libraries are belong to us. | Those who do not read shall not eat.
Help me, Satomi-san. You're my only hope. | Fight! Yurika!
Croquettes, Baguettes, and Books, oh my! -
@Geezer-Weasalopes said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:
Someone in their blinking thirties acting like they're one foot in the grave purely due to their age.
Good call. I can relate to this. A lot of Japanese media is written with the assumption that late-20s is about as old as is even worth mentioning. Everyone older than that is just a side-character.
Struggling to think of a good example, but this exchange from One Punch Man was telling... Atomic Samurai says "I'm only 37, I'm not old enough to be called 'ossan'", to which Saitama responds to himself "37 isn't ossan? I had no idea".
I'm well aware that to some in their teens and twenties, thirty is one foot in the grave
Yeah. To a teenager, 30 is about their entire lifespan away - it feels like a long way off.
I think it has to be acknowledged that most LNs are targeted at a younger audience. As an early listener of Baby Metal, I was pretty disturbed when the Reddit BM forums would refer to the singers as (e.g.) "Goddesses". I thought it was gross for adult men to be worshiping twelve-year-old girls. That was when it struck me - most of the participants were probably just teenagers themselves. In fact, I might have been the only older guy there - a bit like Michael Scott attending Magic Camp. So the behavior wasn't quite as disturbing or gross as it had initially struck me, and I may have been the only fish out of water there.
I don't have a problem with those who acknowledge their age and that they aren't as young as they once were, but still recognize their own ability.
I will only say that I think a lot of the antics that people get up to in LN and anime are things that are appropriate to the younger and less experienced. A measured and mature reaction hardly makes for engaging drama. "This is outrageous! I'm going to write a sternly worded letter to the local newspaper!"
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I'll be honest - as someone in his mid-50s himself, I haven't had a problem with any of these age-related tropes.
I think the main difference is my frame of reference - professional athletes, and my being a former high school athlete (cross-country/track). It is very common for professional athletes to peak in their mid-30s, if not in their 20s (and for gymnasts, sometimes even in their teens). For myself, I did enough damage to my joints running cross-country in high school that I was never able to compete after that.
And for me, athletes are what these people remind me of. You need the same kind of reflexes and physical conditioning in fighting as you do in athletics. So having characters in their 30s/40s think they're past their prime - well, it's not just understandable, it's expected.
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@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:
A measured and mature reaction hardly makes for engaging drama. "This is outrageous! I'm going to write a sternly worded letter to the local newspaper!"
These days that would prove someone was out-of-touch with one foot in the grave!
I was tempted to respond "local what?"
I'm not sure how long it's been since I last read a newspaper, well over a decade, maybe fifteen years, maybe longer.@Travis-Butler said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:
And for me, athletes are what these people remind me of. You need the same kind of reflexes and physical conditioning in fighting as you do in athletics. So having characters in their 30s/40s think they're past their prime - well, it's not just understandable, it's expected.
There is something to that.
An awful lot of people have wrecked their bodies via sports and athletics, given they are pretty much all about forcing your body to the limits of what it is capable of...and a bit beyond.
Except that the one who sets me off the most isn't showing any signs of physical deterioration, still has better reaction time and observational ability than anyone he's coming up against. There's no indication he's slowed down at all.
There's nothing justifying his thinking of himself as he does.
I'm somewhat amazed at that myself, given what I know concerning those involved with providing instruction in rapier combat during the late Elizabethan period; a lot of them were missing an eye if nothing else. -
@Geezer-Weasalopes said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:
When in my thirties I questioned if I was really an adult yet
I have always felt this way. When I was forty I thought I was so foolish when I was thirty. Then at 50 you think if I only had realized that back when I was forty and on and on!
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I think unknownmat is on the mark here, even when light novels have adult or middle aged protagonists they are most likely still targeted to teenagers and written with their perspective in mind. So of course the 40 years old retired hero acts like he already has a foot in his grave and the 30 years old heroine sees herself as a old hag nobody would ever want despite being the hottest woman on earth. I'm not really bothered by that, though the fact that that even at 44 years old I often find it hard to see myself as a mature and responsible adult individual probably plays a part.
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@Geezer-Weasalopes said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:
Except that the one who sets me off the most isn't showing any signs of physical deterioration, still has better reaction time and observational ability than anyone he's coming up against. There's no indication he's slowed down at all.
There's nothing justifying his thinking of himself as he does.That's why we appreciate The Red Ogre while mocking The Country Bumpkin Who Thinks He's So Old.
Bel as you say, is missing his lower leg, and after a couple of decades of farming in the country he does have aches and pains. He accepts that, and only remarks on it now and then not every five minutes.
Meanwhile Bumpkin is apparently in his prime, but to the author he's nearing retirement age without any reasons given. He hasn't earned that foot in the grave.
@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:
A measured and mature reaction hardly makes for engaging drama.
That's something I like about Death March. Satou is a transmigrated 29-year-old who acts like it despite his new 15-year-old body. People try to tease him or provoke him and he's too much of an adult to take the bait. Death March is a fairly laid back series though, so that doesn't contradict your point :)
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Benjamin Franklin was held in high esteem because he made it to 84 when most people only lived 38 - 40 years old during his time. I think we assume that in fantasy people have a longer age but if in fact they mirror our own planet than 30 could be very old. I happen to think that the stories themselves tend to lean towards that they live longer but it could be a factor.
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@HarmlessDave said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:
That's something I like about Death March. Satou is a transmigrated 29-year-old who acts like it despite his new 15-year-old body. People try to tease him or provoke him and he's too much of an adult to take the bait. Death March is a fairly laid back series though, so that doesn't contradict your point :)
Yeah. I have never fully figured out why I like Death March so much more than the dozen-or-so seemingly similar series out there, but I agree that this is one area where Death March distinguishes itself.
Satou faces plenty of situations where it might be satisfying for him to react with maximum forces and righteous anger. But he consistently avoids doing so, instead allowing insults to roll off and reacting calmly with a sense of proportion. Exactly how an adult should behave.
When he was being harassed by Poputema or Sokell, for example. Or when Duke Vistall summoned him, and rudely made him to wait four plus hours for his audience. Satou would certainly be justified (in the eyes of the readers) to have walked out with a snarky remark, and he's powerful enough to deal with any of the repercussions of insulting a Duke. Yet, that is not what he does. Instead, he just takes it on the chin. He waits the four hours, he is perfectly cordial during his audience, and then he just gets on with his day. I'm sure that this might frustrate some readers, because it would be much more satisfying for him to not take any shit. But in the greater scheme of things, a four hour wait isn't the end of the day, and it's not worth the trouble of making enemies.
That said, I guess there's still drama in petty politics. It's just not the kind of drama likely to appeal to the average teenager (or so I imagine).
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@geetop said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:
Benjamin Franklin was held in high esteem because he made it to 84 when most people only lived 38 - 40 years old during his time. I think we assume that in fantasy people have a longer age but if in fact they mirror our own planet than 30 could be very old.
I'm too lazy to look this up, and I imagine it varies a lot by time and by place. But I've read that the historical lower average lifespans were due to high infant and child mortality. If you made it out of your childhood, there was a decent chance you'd make it to age 60.
And it's true that children took on adult responsibilities much younger in the past. Adolescence is a relatively modern invention.
But let's be honest here, most LN authors are not making an informed decision based on their deep commitment to historical accuracy. What's really going on here is that younger people are more attractive, more fun to read about, and appeal more to the target demographic than would an older character.
@Travis-Butler said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:
...It is very common for professional athletes to peak in their mid-30s, if not in their 20s (and for gymnasts, sometimes even in their teens)... And for me, athletes are what these people remind me of.
This might be true for battle stories, but the preference for younger protagonists is fairly consistent across genres, in my experience.
And similar to my response above, LN authors aren't choosing younger characters due to a deep commitment to biological accuracy. In fact, there are many series where I feel like the protagonist is too young. A 13-year-old boy would almost never beat a 35-year-old man in a fight, for example, just due to the sheer difference in body weight and in physical strength.
