Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.

unknownmat

@HarmlessDave said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

That's something I like about Death March. Satou is a transmigrated 29-year-old who acts like it despite his new 15-year-old body. People try to tease him or provoke him and he's too much of an adult to take the bait. Death March is a fairly laid back series though, so that doesn't contradict your point :)

Yeah. I have never fully figured out why I like Death March so much more than the dozen-or-so seemingly similar series out there, but I agree that this is one area where Death March distinguishes itself.

Satou faces plenty of situations where it might be satisfying for him to react with maximum forces and righteous anger. But he consistently avoids doing so, instead allowing insults to roll off and reacting calmly with a sense of proportion. Exactly how an adult should behave.

When he was being harassed by Poputema or Sokell, for example. Or when Duke Vistall summoned him, and rudely made him to wait four plus hours for his audience. Satou would certainly be justified (in the eyes of the readers) to have walked out with a snarky remark, and he's powerful enough to deal with any of the repercussions of insulting a Duke. Yet, that is not what he does. Instead, he just takes it on the chin. He waits the four hours, he is perfectly cordial during his audience, and then he just gets on with his day. I'm sure that this might frustrate some readers, because it would be much more satisfying for him to not take any shit. But in the greater scheme of things, a four hour wait isn't the end of the day, and it's not worth the trouble of making enemies.

That said, I guess there's still drama in petty politics. It's just not the kind of drama likely to appeal to the average teenager (or so I imagine).

unknownmat

@geetop said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

Benjamin Franklin was held in high esteem because he made it to 84 when most people only lived 38 - 40 years old during his time. I think we assume that in fantasy people have a longer age but if in fact they mirror our own planet than 30 could be very old.

I'm too lazy to look this up, and I imagine it varies a lot by time and by place. But I've read that the historical lower average lifespans were due to high infant and child mortality. If you made it out of your childhood, there was a decent chance you'd make it to age 60.

And it's true that children took on adult responsibilities much younger in the past. Adolescence is a relatively modern invention.

But let's be honest here, most LN authors are not making an informed decision based on their deep commitment to historical accuracy. What's really going on here is that younger people are more attractive, more fun to read about, and appeal more to the target demographic than would an older character.

@Travis-Butler said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

...It is very common for professional athletes to peak in their mid-30s, if not in their 20s (and for gymnasts, sometimes even in their teens)... And for me, athletes are what these people remind me of.

This might be true for battle stories, but the preference for younger protagonists is fairly consistent across genres, in my experience.

And similar to my response above, LN authors aren't choosing younger characters due to a deep commitment to biological accuracy. In fact, there are many series where I feel like the protagonist is too young. A 13-year-old boy would almost never beat a 35-year-old man in a fight, for example, just due to the sheer difference in body weight and in physical strength.

Travis Butler

@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

@Travis-Butler said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

...It is very common for professional athletes to peak in their mid-30s, if not in their 20s (and for gymnasts, sometimes even in their teens)... And for me, athletes are what these people remind me of.

This might be true for battle stories, but the preference for younger protagonists is fairly consistent across genres, in my experience.

Er? What does that have to do with it?

We’re not talking about younger protagonists. We’re talking about protagonists in their 30s and 40s referring to themselves as ‘old men’. And in pretty much every JNC series I can think of where the issue’s come up, it’s been someone in a physically demanding role - swordsman, blacksmith, magical swordsman, etc. So for me, it’s very easy to lump them in with ‘athletes’ as people where physical youth - strength, endurance, fast reflexes, and other factors that decline with age - is very important, and someone in their 30s or 40s could easily regard themselves as past their prime. Old.

To give a counter-example, Middle-aged Salesman, I can’t recall him referring to himself as old.

kuali

@Travis-Butler The issue with most of them, in my experience, is that they're typically just being used as self-pity breaks to give the character 'depth'. You don't get many 40-year-old warrior MCs who are actually feeling the effects of their age; I'd be a lot more tolerant of someone complaining about their age if, say, a potential love interest ever rejected them over the age gap, or they suffered an actual loss because their dodgy knee was playing up at the worst of times. Most of the ones I see are just whining for the sake of whining - their age doesn't actually have any effect on their life (no matter how much it logically should).

Of course, I feel this way about any unjustified whining - Not just age related whining. Whether characters complaining about things that aren't actually negatively impacting them, or about things that do have consequences, but the issue is (potentially) fixable and the character just isn't bothering to try...

I would, in short, far prefer to read a story about someone trying to overcome actual issues in their life or an OP series that just concentrated on enjoying the OP Protagonist doing awesome things than a series where the OP protagonist occasionally pauses between epic feats to go "Oh, no, I'm so old/weak/ugly/flat chested/etc!"... And then goes right back to doing epic stuff.

unknownmat

@Travis-Butler said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

We’re not talking about younger protagonists. We’re talking about protagonists in their 30s and 40s referring to themselves as ‘old men’.

Well, I'm talking more generally about the narrative treating anything over 30 as old. This doesn't have to be just about older men complaining. It also happens in other subtler ways.

It's reasonable to consider elite athletes old once they reach 30 (interestingly, this is true in chess, too). But as I said, I highly doubt that's what's really going on. Instead, it's really about appealing to a younger audience.

HarmlessDave

@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

Well, I'm talking more generally about the narrative treating anything over 30 as old. This doesn't have to be just about older men complaining. It also happens in other subtler ways.

See: Women in most LNs. Anyone over 29 is supposedly a spinster granny past her sell-by date.

Unless she's a (sigh) 200 year old legal loli and the author is totally not pandering towards loli chasers.

HarmlessDave

Amazon thinking LNs and manga are the same thing and not bothering to label which is which.

It used to be you could at least see "and Comixology" in the manga listing they recommended to you as if it was a LN, but now even that is gone.

I've almost bought manga volume N of some series by mistake a few times when Amazon told me there was a new release by an author I'm reading.

(This is a separate rant from Amazon thinking LNs are for pre-teens and must not include anything naughty.)

SomeOldGuy

@HarmlessDave You mean how they claim I've bought "2 of 5" of the manga of a series I've bought all 5 of the light novels? It's very difficult to even see that there have been 5 novels, if you haven't bought them already, because only the manga comes up...

unknownmat

@HarmlessDave Ah, good one. I can't tell you how often I've purchased a manga thinking it was a LN. And going through their refund process for digital purchases is annoying.

I have so many little annoyances with Amazon.

The fact that they don't always group series properly and it's not always easy to search for the latest volume in a series. I've even had the "next volume" button take me to the Manga rather than the next LN.
The fact that I have to learn what passages other uses have highlighted. Gee, good thing they tell me what I'm supposed to care about. It would be tragic if I were forced to decide that for myself.
The refresh function sucks, I'm never certain if I have the latest version of a book. I once purchased a Bookworm volume that contained the guts for Archdemon's Dilemma, and this didn't correct itself after 6+ months, despite being a known issue. I actually wound up going through multiple rounds of refunds and repurchases before I got the right book.
They nag me incessantly over series I don't care about ("A new book by FUNA that you might be interested in..."), while failing to keep me updated about series that I'm genuinely anticipating.
Unrelated to LNs, but the recent attempt by Kindle to gamify my reading. "You've received an achievement..." JFC! Can't I be allowed one actual human experience without these assholes trying to reduce it to a meaningless act of point accumulation?

I feel like the list should be much longer, but that's all I can think of for now.

kuali

@unknownmat Reading achievements, seriously? Ugh, that does sound awful.

What do people think about other ebook stores? I'm primarily a kobo user these days, and I have... no particularly strong feelings about the store. Other than occasional issues with their series grouping, too (though I've generally seen Kobo accidentally splitting one series into two series rather than smooshing the novels and manga together haphazardly).

Of course, 'no particularly strong feelings' does seem to rank it above the modern kindle experience...

saidahgilbert

@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

the recent attempt by Kindle to gamify my reading.

I actually like the achievements. It made me use the Android app more. I used to use only my Kindle or the PC app and the PC app doesn't show everything that you would see on the Android app. I still don't really use it to read but now it has more of a justification for being on my phone.

unknownmat

@saidahgilbert said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

I actually like the achievements.

Fair enough. To each his own. I just wish they let me turn it off.

rsog412

@kuali said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

What do people think about other ebook stores?

Bookwalker has a ~~very nice~~ adequate web-reader (it lacks accessibility features, copy-and-paste, etc.). For books that I just want to read once and don't care very much about whether I actually own a copy (or whether some corporation could arbitrarily revoke my access without compensation), I have no complaints.

Obviously, their selection is limited to just publishers that deal in translated Japanese novels, of course.

Geezer Weasalopes

@kuali said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

What do people think about other ebook stores?

GooglePlay seems to have ceased allowing the downloading of manga, so I no longer purchase manga through them; there isn't any official statement to indicate this, not can you tell it's the case until after you make the purchase and discover there's no option to export/download.
I suspect it has to do with file size, but that's just a guess.
Kobo has the exact same items and also uses Adobe Digital Editions for their DRM management and has no problem allowing the downloads...Google can't handle the bandwidth? For realz?!
Thankfully GooglePlay is a cinch for refunds if done within a day or so...and you did the proper user authentication for each and every title purchased, the two-factor stuff.
Barnes & Noble has long since phased out their non-app offline reader for Windows.

So these days my ranking is

Purchase direct from the publisher when possible.
Kobo.
GooglePlay.

I think Bookwalker edges out Amazon Kindle at this time when both carry the desired item.

Last being Barnes & Noble Nook. For a variety of reasons, which is ironic given at one time it was my first place for purchases other than the publisher.

So far as I can tell Bookwalker is the only major digital outlet that hasn't removed manga/LNs for dumb reasons.

Travis Butler

TBH, I don’t like the readers for any of the online stores, except maybe Apple’s. So priority 1 is letting me use any reader - which means either DRM-free stores like JNC, or an easy way to remove it. Nook started out ok there, but crashed and burned several years ago. These days, that’s Kobo, but it’s still a fair amount of hassle. If I don’t want the hassle, I go with Apple’s store, which I think also gives a better customer UI - but no chance of reading the purchases elsewhere.

Amazon is at the bottom of the list, alongside Nook.

HarmlessDave

I only buy from Amazon (when I can't get DRM free from the publisher) because I have a kindle e-ink reader and am happy with that if not their store.

I also buy western fantasy and SF, and have (checks store) 482 books in my library. Switching to a different e-ink reader brand would be a pain at this point.

unknownmat

FWIW, I don't hate the Amazon reader or experience, despite my various frustrations with it.

I like the Kindle reader well enough. For example, I like to read vertically using "continuous mode" (IMO, it's silly to be limited to the idea of a "physical page" in an electronic medium)*, and the Kindle reader does that better than any other reader I've found.
Convenience of having my entire library in one place, accessible any time and anywhere
Convenience of not having to download and manage separate files
Ability to setup a kids account for my daughter that I can manage. I have complete control over which books I allow her to read.
Ability to report typos in-app

* There's a whole rant about physical metaphors in digital media. "Kinetic UI" always struck me as a bad idea, for example. Digital artifacts don't have mass, or momentum, or velocity, so why do we waste so much time pretending they do?

geetop

I like to read LitRPG which means I need access to Kindle Unlimited which is the home for most of the genre. I like using my Kobo Forma for Library books since it has Overdrive built into its user interface. The Kobo also has much clearer text and if you use Dark Mode it really shines compared to the kindle experience.

unknownmat

Another grievance occurred to me...

I hate dream sequences, or any other segment that is meant to be treated as metaphorical/symbolic. This is particularly frustrating when it happens right in the middle of an action sequence, and/or is meant to be a key turning point in the story. For example, the dream might convince the protagonist to finally accept his fate as the hero of desitny or else provide the hero some key insight into the true nature of his powers, etc.

My issue(s) with dreams/symbolism:

They often often interrupt otherwise fast-paced action sequences. I want to know what happens! If you're going to put me in suspense there had better be a big payoff!
Dreams are boring. I don't care about your dreams! Dreams are never as interesting or significant to other people as they are to you (just like any story that begins with: "This one time when I was so drunk...", is never as funny as you thinks it is).
There is little payoff for all the mental effort. Because the dream isn't "actually" happening, you lose the entire context of the existing setting, and are thus forced to build up a disposable setting that has no impact on the story itself. This can be a gross violation of Chekhov's Gun.
They aren't bound by constraints. The events and objects within the dream may or may not be significant and may or may not have any impact on the story, completely at the author's convenience. It's even possible for the author to decide this retroactively. This basically shifts the burden onto the reader and forces us to keep the whole dream in mind on the off-chance that some seemingly extraneous detail turns out to be important, even though most of the details are not and can be safely forgotten.
It can be a cheap way to insert character progression without the trouble of otherwise setting up the characters/events in such a way that the protagonist can gain this insight organically. This is just lazy writing.
At worst, it can be a deus ex machina (e.g. the protag suddenly realizes the dark lord's key weakness), that cheapens the protagonist's struggles.

unknownmat

Another grievance - magic systems that depend on the power of imagination.

This can be done better or worse, but the basic issue with imagination is that it is unlimited and imprecise. You can say anything, but it's highly debatable whether being able to describe something is the same thing as imagining it.

The best analogy I can come up with is the game that young kids will sometimes play trying to name the biggest number. "I attack you with the power of one thousand suns", "Well I attack you with one million suns", "I attack you with a bajillion suns!", "I attack you with a black hole!", "I attack with the big bang!". Of course the example is a silly one, but you'll note that the numbers quickly stop being actual numbers, and the progression doesn't follow any meaningful curve nor even the laws of mathematics itself. It's nearly impossible for a sensical outcome to result from a "power of imagination" battle.

Programmers straddle this reality every day. A feature that can be described by a short sentence, might nevertheless take a week to implement. Any implementation needs to deal with all the corner cases and fiddly details that a simple description can gloss over as "common sense". But computers don't have common sense, and neither should your magic system without some really careful setup.

Without reasonable constraints the magic system easily leads to ridiculous outcomes. For example, an unrestrained teleportation ability would allow for the creation of a infinite energy that would benefit the world far more than stopping a few petty criminals, or a gravity-bomb that would be far more devastating than even the greatest super power. Etc.

This occurred to me while reading Frieren and the one character who's only middlingly powerful unless she can clearly imagine herself cutting you at which point her attack power becomes infinite. As much as I like the story of Frieren, the magic system is just a giant eyeroll at this point.