Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.

unknownmat

@Gamen I think I caught one of those misspelling. I did catch a number of other spelling and grammatical errors, but I just reported them through Kindle and kept reading. I wonder if quality suffers at a pace of three per year. But in book 16 there were two instances where they mixed up Baronet Jelil and Sir Juleberg. So it's not like the slower pace was more conducive to quality, either.

In fact, apropos to this forum, the relatively large number of proofreading errors in LNs is something that bothers me. It makes the end product seem much less professional. I'm not sure how larger publishers manage it. But I do think LN publishing, broadly, has a very noticeable proofreading problem.

Geezer Weasalopes

I'm not sure this quite qualifies based upon the initial post...but it impacts whether an otherwise acceptable series becomes less so.

Someone in their blinking thirties acting like they're one foot in the grave purely due to their age.
They're in good enough shape that no one younger than them is defeating them, there aren't any true signs that they've started into a decline, but damn near every other sentence has them tossing in some version of "for someone my age" in their internal monologue, and it makes it into their spoken dialogue and they totally ignore anything anyone else says concerning their ability being exceptional at any age.

...OK, the one that triggered this is From Old Country Bumpkin to Master Swordsman 'cause it's majorly guilty of this, but there are others as well.

I'm well aware that to some in their teens and twenties, thirty is one foot in the grave senile beyond all hope, but on the whole the only folks who think that way once they are in their thirties are detached from reality in other ways...or they really are in bad health and it's not their age that is the issue.

As someone in their early sixties who has always been chasing after folks slightly older than me...it's only because my body is deteriorating on me that I have anything interfering with my mental image of still being in my twenties.
When in my thirties I questioned if I was really an adult yet...(at times with good reason.)

It's played as a version of the Oblivious MC, or an additional aspect of a specific Oblivious MC.
A number of the Oblivious MC tropes I don't have a problem with, since I've been there myself, but this is one that always reeks of the author being damn young themselves.

I don't have a problem with those who acknowledge their age and that they aren't as young as they once were, but still recognize their own ability.

Well, there's a related trope concerning those who don't have a full comprehension of their ability due to not having had anyone available for proper comparison for some time.

The MC in Bumpkin has a bit of that, but even when he is forced to notice how he measures up he finds ways of discounting it; someone really did a number on him psychologically at one point is all we can think.

Belgrieve in S-Rank Adventurer also doesn't consider himself that impressive, certainly not enough for such a chuuni moniker as The Red Ogre! (more properly, "My dad, *The Red Ogre!")
He's come to accept that he is skilled, but still thinks his daughter is blowing it out of proportion...her coming up with a name for him and publicizing it all over hasn't helped any, since he knows he hasn't done anything that would have resulted in his being given such a handle in the normal course of events.

Both of these MCs are skilled at training others to excel. They've other similarities.
Bel may be older.
Bel's got a missing lower leg.
Bel's better adjusted concerning his abilities and how others in the trade look at him.

unknownmat

@Geezer-Weasalopes said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

Someone in their blinking thirties acting like they're one foot in the grave purely due to their age.

Good call. I can relate to this. A lot of Japanese media is written with the assumption that late-20s is about as old as is even worth mentioning. Everyone older than that is just a side-character.

Struggling to think of a good example, but this exchange from One Punch Man was telling... Atomic Samurai says "I'm only 37, I'm not old enough to be called 'ossan'", to which Saitama responds to himself "37 isn't ossan? I had no idea".

I'm well aware that to some in their teens and twenties, thirty is one foot in the grave

Yeah. To a teenager, 30 is about their entire lifespan away - it feels like a long way off.

I think it has to be acknowledged that most LNs are targeted at a younger audience. As an early listener of Baby Metal, I was pretty disturbed when the Reddit BM forums would refer to the singers as (e.g.) "Goddesses". I thought it was gross for adult men to be worshiping twelve-year-old girls. That was when it struck me - most of the participants were probably just teenagers themselves. In fact, I might have been the only older guy there - a bit like Michael Scott attending Magic Camp. So the behavior wasn't quite as disturbing or gross as it had initially struck me, and I may have been the only fish out of water there.

I don't have a problem with those who acknowledge their age and that they aren't as young as they once were, but still recognize their own ability.

I will only say that I think a lot of the antics that people get up to in LN and anime are things that are appropriate to the younger and less experienced. A measured and mature reaction hardly makes for engaging drama. "This is outrageous! I'm going to write a sternly worded letter to the local newspaper!"

Travis Butler

I'll be honest - as someone in his mid-50s himself, I haven't had a problem with any of these age-related tropes.

I think the main difference is my frame of reference - professional athletes, and my being a former high school athlete (cross-country/track). It is very common for professional athletes to peak in their mid-30s, if not in their 20s (and for gymnasts, sometimes even in their teens). For myself, I did enough damage to my joints running cross-country in high school that I was never able to compete after that.

And for me, athletes are what these people remind me of. You need the same kind of reflexes and physical conditioning in fighting as you do in athletics. So having characters in their 30s/40s think they're past their prime - well, it's not just understandable, it's expected.

Geezer Weasalopes

@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

A measured and mature reaction hardly makes for engaging drama. "This is outrageous! I'm going to write a sternly worded letter to the local newspaper!"

These days that would prove someone was out-of-touch with one foot in the grave!
I was tempted to respond "local what?"
I'm not sure how long it's been since I last read a newspaper, well over a decade, maybe fifteen years, maybe longer.

@Travis-Butler said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

And for me, athletes are what these people remind me of. You need the same kind of reflexes and physical conditioning in fighting as you do in athletics. So having characters in their 30s/40s think they're past their prime - well, it's not just understandable, it's expected.

There is something to that.
An awful lot of people have wrecked their bodies via sports and athletics, given they are pretty much all about forcing your body to the limits of what it is capable of...and a bit beyond.
Except that the one who sets me off the most isn't showing any signs of physical deterioration, still has better reaction time and observational ability than anyone he's coming up against. There's no indication he's slowed down at all.
There's nothing justifying his thinking of himself as he does.
I'm somewhat amazed at that myself, given what I know concerning those involved with providing instruction in rapier combat during the late Elizabethan period; a lot of them were missing an eye if nothing else.

geetop

@Geezer-Weasalopes said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

When in my thirties I questioned if I was really an adult yet

I have always felt this way. When I was forty I thought I was so foolish when I was thirty. Then at 50 you think if I only had realized that back when I was forty and on and on!

Lex

I think unknownmat is on the mark here, even when light novels have adult or middle aged protagonists they are most likely still targeted to teenagers and written with their perspective in mind. So of course the 40 years old retired hero acts like he already has a foot in his grave and the 30 years old heroine sees herself as a old hag nobody would ever want despite being the hottest woman on earth. I'm not really bothered by that, though the fact that that even at 44 years old I often find it hard to see myself as a mature and responsible adult individual probably plays a part.

HarmlessDave

@Geezer-Weasalopes said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

Except that the one who sets me off the most isn't showing any signs of physical deterioration, still has better reaction time and observational ability than anyone he's coming up against. There's no indication he's slowed down at all.
There's nothing justifying his thinking of himself as he does.

That's why we appreciate The Red Ogre while mocking The Country Bumpkin Who Thinks He's So Old.

Bel as you say, is missing his lower leg, and after a couple of decades of farming in the country he does have aches and pains. He accepts that, and only remarks on it now and then not every five minutes.

Meanwhile Bumpkin is apparently in his prime, but to the author he's nearing retirement age without any reasons given. He hasn't earned that foot in the grave.

@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

A measured and mature reaction hardly makes for engaging drama.

That's something I like about Death March. Satou is a transmigrated 29-year-old who acts like it despite his new 15-year-old body. People try to tease him or provoke him and he's too much of an adult to take the bait. Death March is a fairly laid back series though, so that doesn't contradict your point :)

geetop

Benjamin Franklin was held in high esteem because he made it to 84 when most people only lived 38 - 40 years old during his time. I think we assume that in fantasy people have a longer age but if in fact they mirror our own planet than 30 could be very old. I happen to think that the stories themselves tend to lean towards that they live longer but it could be a factor.

unknownmat

@HarmlessDave said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

That's something I like about Death March. Satou is a transmigrated 29-year-old who acts like it despite his new 15-year-old body. People try to tease him or provoke him and he's too much of an adult to take the bait. Death March is a fairly laid back series though, so that doesn't contradict your point :)

Yeah. I have never fully figured out why I like Death March so much more than the dozen-or-so seemingly similar series out there, but I agree that this is one area where Death March distinguishes itself.

Satou faces plenty of situations where it might be satisfying for him to react with maximum forces and righteous anger. But he consistently avoids doing so, instead allowing insults to roll off and reacting calmly with a sense of proportion. Exactly how an adult should behave.

When he was being harassed by Poputema or Sokell, for example. Or when Duke Vistall summoned him, and rudely made him to wait four plus hours for his audience. Satou would certainly be justified (in the eyes of the readers) to have walked out with a snarky remark, and he's powerful enough to deal with any of the repercussions of insulting a Duke. Yet, that is not what he does. Instead, he just takes it on the chin. He waits the four hours, he is perfectly cordial during his audience, and then he just gets on with his day. I'm sure that this might frustrate some readers, because it would be much more satisfying for him to not take any shit. But in the greater scheme of things, a four hour wait isn't the end of the day, and it's not worth the trouble of making enemies.

That said, I guess there's still drama in petty politics. It's just not the kind of drama likely to appeal to the average teenager (or so I imagine).

unknownmat

@geetop said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

Benjamin Franklin was held in high esteem because he made it to 84 when most people only lived 38 - 40 years old during his time. I think we assume that in fantasy people have a longer age but if in fact they mirror our own planet than 30 could be very old.

I'm too lazy to look this up, and I imagine it varies a lot by time and by place. But I've read that the historical lower average lifespans were due to high infant and child mortality. If you made it out of your childhood, there was a decent chance you'd make it to age 60.

And it's true that children took on adult responsibilities much younger in the past. Adolescence is a relatively modern invention.

But let's be honest here, most LN authors are not making an informed decision based on their deep commitment to historical accuracy. What's really going on here is that younger people are more attractive, more fun to read about, and appeal more to the target demographic than would an older character.

@Travis-Butler said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

...It is very common for professional athletes to peak in their mid-30s, if not in their 20s (and for gymnasts, sometimes even in their teens)... And for me, athletes are what these people remind me of.

This might be true for battle stories, but the preference for younger protagonists is fairly consistent across genres, in my experience.

And similar to my response above, LN authors aren't choosing younger characters due to a deep commitment to biological accuracy. In fact, there are many series where I feel like the protagonist is too young. A 13-year-old boy would almost never beat a 35-year-old man in a fight, for example, just due to the sheer difference in body weight and in physical strength.

Travis Butler

@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

@Travis-Butler said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

...It is very common for professional athletes to peak in their mid-30s, if not in their 20s (and for gymnasts, sometimes even in their teens)... And for me, athletes are what these people remind me of.

This might be true for battle stories, but the preference for younger protagonists is fairly consistent across genres, in my experience.

Er? What does that have to do with it?

We’re not talking about younger protagonists. We’re talking about protagonists in their 30s and 40s referring to themselves as ‘old men’. And in pretty much every JNC series I can think of where the issue’s come up, it’s been someone in a physically demanding role - swordsman, blacksmith, magical swordsman, etc. So for me, it’s very easy to lump them in with ‘athletes’ as people where physical youth - strength, endurance, fast reflexes, and other factors that decline with age - is very important, and someone in their 30s or 40s could easily regard themselves as past their prime. Old.

To give a counter-example, Middle-aged Salesman, I can’t recall him referring to himself as old.

kuali

@Travis-Butler The issue with most of them, in my experience, is that they're typically just being used as self-pity breaks to give the character 'depth'. You don't get many 40-year-old warrior MCs who are actually feeling the effects of their age; I'd be a lot more tolerant of someone complaining about their age if, say, a potential love interest ever rejected them over the age gap, or they suffered an actual loss because their dodgy knee was playing up at the worst of times. Most of the ones I see are just whining for the sake of whining - their age doesn't actually have any effect on their life (no matter how much it logically should).

Of course, I feel this way about any unjustified whining - Not just age related whining. Whether characters complaining about things that aren't actually negatively impacting them, or about things that do have consequences, but the issue is (potentially) fixable and the character just isn't bothering to try...

I would, in short, far prefer to read a story about someone trying to overcome actual issues in their life or an OP series that just concentrated on enjoying the OP Protagonist doing awesome things than a series where the OP protagonist occasionally pauses between epic feats to go "Oh, no, I'm so old/weak/ugly/flat chested/etc!"... And then goes right back to doing epic stuff.

unknownmat

@Travis-Butler said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

We’re not talking about younger protagonists. We’re talking about protagonists in their 30s and 40s referring to themselves as ‘old men’.

Well, I'm talking more generally about the narrative treating anything over 30 as old. This doesn't have to be just about older men complaining. It also happens in other subtler ways.

It's reasonable to consider elite athletes old once they reach 30 (interestingly, this is true in chess, too). But as I said, I highly doubt that's what's really going on. Instead, it's really about appealing to a younger audience.

HarmlessDave

@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

Well, I'm talking more generally about the narrative treating anything over 30 as old. This doesn't have to be just about older men complaining. It also happens in other subtler ways.

See: Women in most LNs. Anyone over 29 is supposedly a spinster granny past her sell-by date.

Unless she's a (sigh) 200 year old legal loli and the author is totally not pandering towards loli chasers.

HarmlessDave

Amazon thinking LNs and manga are the same thing and not bothering to label which is which.

It used to be you could at least see "and Comixology" in the manga listing they recommended to you as if it was a LN, but now even that is gone.

I've almost bought manga volume N of some series by mistake a few times when Amazon told me there was a new release by an author I'm reading.

(This is a separate rant from Amazon thinking LNs are for pre-teens and must not include anything naughty.)

SomeOldGuy

@HarmlessDave You mean how they claim I've bought "2 of 5" of the manga of a series I've bought all 5 of the light novels? It's very difficult to even see that there have been 5 novels, if you haven't bought them already, because only the manga comes up...

unknownmat

@HarmlessDave Ah, good one. I can't tell you how often I've purchased a manga thinking it was a LN. And going through their refund process for digital purchases is annoying.

I have so many little annoyances with Amazon.

The fact that they don't always group series properly and it's not always easy to search for the latest volume in a series. I've even had the "next volume" button take me to the Manga rather than the next LN.
The fact that I have to learn what passages other uses have highlighted. Gee, good thing they tell me what I'm supposed to care about. It would be tragic if I were forced to decide that for myself.
The refresh function sucks, I'm never certain if I have the latest version of a book. I once purchased a Bookworm volume that contained the guts for Archdemon's Dilemma, and this didn't correct itself after 6+ months, despite being a known issue. I actually wound up going through multiple rounds of refunds and repurchases before I got the right book.
They nag me incessantly over series I don't care about ("A new book by FUNA that you might be interested in..."), while failing to keep me updated about series that I'm genuinely anticipating.
Unrelated to LNs, but the recent attempt by Kindle to gamify my reading. "You've received an achievement..." JFC! Can't I be allowed one actual human experience without these assholes trying to reduce it to a meaningless act of point accumulation?

I feel like the list should be much longer, but that's all I can think of for now.

kuali

@unknownmat Reading achievements, seriously? Ugh, that does sound awful.

What do people think about other ebook stores? I'm primarily a kobo user these days, and I have... no particularly strong feelings about the store. Other than occasional issues with their series grouping, too (though I've generally seen Kobo accidentally splitting one series into two series rather than smooshing the novels and manga together haphazardly).

Of course, 'no particularly strong feelings' does seem to rank it above the modern kindle experience...

saidahgilbert

@unknownmat said in Hate on what you Love. Let's air our grievances.:

the recent attempt by Kindle to gamify my reading.

I actually like the achievements. It made me use the Android app more. I used to use only my Kindle or the PC app and the PC app doesn't show everything that you would see on the Android app. I still don't really use it to read but now it has more of a justification for being on my phone.