Thoughts upon rereading D-Genesis - there will be spoilers, of course.
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@sorvani said in Thoughts upon rereading D-Genesis - there will be spoilers, of course.:
Book three when they first encounter Ngai, Keigo attacks with flame lance after water lance.
When did he acquire Fire Magic? Sure they had the opportunity to get is on level 11 as they went through it a few times during the time skips surrounding Otherworldly Language Comprehension, but it was never stated. Or did he learn to use it as part of Ultimate Fire Magic? Personally I do not think that is the case because of the discussion in Books 5 & 6 about using Ultimate Fire Magic in Yokohama.
To correct myself:
I finished my reread of book 5 and realized that when Keigo did his Phantom routine, he clearly stated that he had worked on using Ultimate Fire Magic (UFM) and used it for two new effects, the ring shield and Sirius Nova.So he likely just uses Flame Lance as part of UFM.
I also realized I was projecting my misunderstanding of UFM being uncontrolled onto the amount of damage they could cause using it. Based on this updated understanding, using UFM is 100% the answer as long as Keigo wants to out himself as the Phantom.
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@sorvani UFM is Ultimate Flame Magic not Fire Magic. Which he could have chosen from the lesser salamander.
We know very little on what differentiates it from the normal unnumbered fire magic. Though it seems like there's some compatibility in learning similar magic spells. Why would the salamander have both? There's probably a few things in Fire Magic that don't translate over and some things in Ultimate Flame Magic that don't either.
UFM itself is still unnumbered so it'll likely lead to more spell effects based on flame: Fire Lance, Sirius Nova, and Inferno.
We know that Miyoshi appraised it but also held back on what it said. The most she said, was that "Ultimate Flame Magic sounds kind of hardcore."
At this point any magic from orb is reasonably rare so just being another fire/flame user at least add him to the short list of potential Phantom explorers to the wider public. To those who already suspect it would basically confirm it. Even the thought of having a way to deal with the slimes might confirm it enough for some people. After all connecting the dots... they had one person kill 373 slimes before. Not to mention the 373 zombies before that. Both in under 24 hours... So something is suspicious with their ability and known rank.
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The vague impression I have is that 'numbered' Skills are narrower in scope but start with greater control.
The 'unnumbered' version might eventually encompass all that the numbered versions do, but also have the challenge of developing control.
They also might allow for applications that none of the 'numbered' versions would have?Bear in mind this speculation has no roots in a recent perusal of relevant source documents; it's suspect, and requires research to see how it compares to what we've been shown in-story.
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@Geezer-Weasalopes They pretty much stated as such in the novel. The roman numeral version giving specific spells (like Summon Hellhound, water lance, fire lance, etc.) while the unnumbered version allowing learning specific spells but also more and even unique applications.
The odd thing here is why have both Fire Magic and Ultimate Flame magic? It's a similar question to why does the chameleon have both camouflage and invisibility? Two very similar skills but distinctly different. There's very likely some range or limits between the two similar skills but we haven't really gotten many details on what the differences really are.
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@Isshou I meant Flame. I just was lazy about thinking when I wrote that.
@Isshou said in Thoughts upon rereading D-Genesis - there will be spoilers, of course.:
The odd thing here is why have both Fire Magic and Ultimate Flame magic? It's a similar question to why does the chameleon have both camouflage and invisibility? Two very similar skills but distinctly different. There's very likely some range or limits between the two similar skills but we haven't really gotten many details on what the differences really are.
Actually, not too odd to have both on the orb list. It means most spawns will have the common ability, and the super rare chance for one to have the higher power. If you recall, the Lesser Salamandora never even used Fire Magic when they fought them. Keigo theorized to himself that that the fireball that the first one shot was their actual breath and not fire magic.
Since no fireballs came hurtling towards us, that attack was probably the lesser salamandora’s actual breath, not magic.
@Isshou said in Thoughts upon rereading D-Genesis - there will be spoilers, of course.:
We know very little on what differentiates it from the normal unnumbered fire magic.
Will be really annoying if it comes down to fire lance vs flame lance. Just saying.
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If I want to guess, I think unnumbered orbs do what you can imagine, and the difference between lesser and greater orbs is output.
We've seen a few examples of what unnumbered orbs can do. With Water Magic Kei came up with water lance, and the JSDF team uses it for drinking water. In book six part four we saw the JSDF had come up with techniques to drown opponents in a Water Bubble, or to fill a space with water, or to freeze the water.
With Ultimate Flame Magic we actually see Kei's thought process leading up to his first spell. He pictures a cage of flames, thinks about Dante, and turns the 11th floor to glass. He got what he imagined. Similarly we see Iori's thought process when she first gets Magnetic Field Manipulation. Fortunately she's a stem type and comes up with a rail-gun concept. She got what she imagined.
The imagination part fits nice with the "belief creates the rules of the dungeon" reveal.
So this is the guessing part, but I think output is the difference between regular and ultimate magic. Natalie mentioned she wouldn't be able to incinerate enough slimes before she ran out of magic power. This implies she has an upper limit. This could refer to her magic power running out from overuse. But I think when we consider the scale of attacks the JDSF were describing with water magic, they don't seem grand enough to affect an entire floor like Kei's Inferno did. And since the water magic orbs have plenty of variety of spells, I think output is the likely difference.
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@Outinthegardener said in Thoughts upon rereading D-Genesis - there will be spoilers, of course.:
Fortunately she's a stem type and comes up with a rail-gun concept.
FYI: most wanted orb for me other than making. Because rail gun!!
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IIRC, it was more of coil gun.
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@Almond-Magnum said in Thoughts upon rereading D-Genesis - there will be spoilers, of course.:
IIRC, it was more of coil gun.
hush you! leave my dreams of magic rail guns alone!
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Had a recent thought that random orb drops are influenced by the imagination or the character of the receiver.
Kei drops a load of rebar on the final boss, the dungeon scans Kei, and decides "THIS is the person that gets Making. He wants to do experiments, spread the wealth, give orbs to other people." If Johhny Wall-Street killed the dungeon boss and was motivated by material greed, they might get a different orb or no orb at all.
Let's look at all the natural orb drops we've seen.
Iori- Engineering student who knows a thing or two about magnetic fields, gets the magnetic field manipulation orb.
Kei- Creative experimenter gets Making. When specifically hunting for Otherworldly Language, gets Otherwordly Language. (Then again a lot of teams were hunting for OLC and didn't get it. Maybe because they were a bunch of spies and soldiers who would hoard it for their governments?)
Alain Bauge- French Soldier gets two life detection orbs. Possibly a scout specialist? -
@Outinthegardener
Let's not forget the context too.Iori just defeated a flying shark. What would be causing a shark to fly in midair? Magnetic levitation would be one possible thought.
Kei defeated a monster during the formation of a dungeon, it was literally making a dungeon. It would need all sorts of skills to set up the floors and especially the monsters.
I think for Otherworldly Language, it seems to be a high possible drop on all boss monsters we've seen the orb list for. So defeating boss monsters is primed to drop it and Kei's luck stat probably played into it. The only other boss monster kills we know about have been in the lootbox dungeon and the Evans Dungeon being cleared.
What if the Russian that got it before, didn't get it from the goatman shaman but some area/floor boss similar to the hound of Hectate? Would easily work into the difficulty others had trying to find it, as they would be trying to kill normal monsters to get the drop. We've never confirmed if the goatman shaman had the skill in their drop list.
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@Outinthegardener
Kei & Iori, um, no, never mind, while Kei got his after taking down a Dungeon Boss (or worse), Iori got hers from earlier in the dungeon.The specific examples you list do support your theory.
Statistically far too small a sample size, but then again the current point of translation [end of volume 7] is indicating that statistics can hang, there is intent involved.
Random drops aren't.There've been musings [in story as well as in these forums iirc] that the first to trigger orb drops for a given critter is the one who sets what orbs they have the potential to drop; things have been far too convenient otherwise. iirc Kei & Miyoshi realize it's been too convenient...
