Let us Discuss Fanservice(ecchi)
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Fanservice for many is an instant "Nope," but for me, I do not see it in a negative way but a neutral way. Fanservice can add or take away from a story. I have a little graph that Sums up how I see Fanservice (there can also be a Z direction for how much it adds or subtracts to the story).
Natural | | | Non-Consentual ---------------|--------------- Consensual | | | ForcedNatural - the fanservice makes sense in context for the story and/or characters.
Forced - The fanservice does not make sense in context with the story and/or characters.
Consensual - The person subjected to the fanservice is ok with the fanservice.
Non-Consensual - The person subjected to the fanservice is not ok with the fanservice.if you want to put series into categories you can do so as (consensual(%), Natural(%), addition(%)) if you want where a negative % is the Non-Consensual, Forced and detracts from the story. for me I will ignore the Z direction and stick with the Consensual and Natural scaling
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If I try to remember the first fanservice scene that I've read in an LN, I think it was the time Haruhi forced Mikuru to cosplay as bunny girls in front of school.
If I follow @Drone205's chart, then I guess that would be on the forced/non-censentual corner. But still pretty close to neutral. Thinking again, I think most fanservice moments in the Suzumiya Haruhi series are kinda on this side.
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@shrike_al I would put it into Natural instead of Forced. In the Context of the story and Characters, it makes sense because Mikuru does not really try to defend herself and Haruhi does not really empathize with others. And it was also to Promote the SOS Brigade. I would put that scene as in Consensual scale as near the middle (because Haruhi dressed up as well) but probably more non-consensual because Mikuru was part of it and not happy about it.
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All fan service is good service, because what man can say no to being serviced?
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I'm not convinced the "natural" vs "forced" axis is that useful... the fact is that a LOT of times the story comes up with context to give fanservice. And while there's context it's still pretty forced, and you can sort of see that the "context" was really just an excuse.
"The girl is a slave, that's why she's in skimpy clothes."
"This girl is a beastman who's tribe doesn't like wearing clothes, that's why she's barely wearing anything" etc.Those may make sense in the context of the story, but you can tell when the author is obviously picking scenario's where they can have fanservice.
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Using the definitions given, I would say I prefer fan-service to be natural than forced (80% natural). As long as it's innocent enough I don't think I mind being consensual or non-consensual.
Though there are other things to consider. e.g. if it's played as a joke, is it funny? (please stop accidentally grabbing the violent tsundere's breasts...) Does the forced situation lead to some sort of development development? (unlikely but I hope), etc. -
@chi-c I may not have explained the "Natural" and "Forced" well enough. for an example of fanservice, I would say the Fanservice in NGNL would be in the natural direction because we learn beforehand that Sora and Shiro can't be separated or they get a panic attack. So all the Bath scenes would be in the natural direction because we learn this way before any Bath scenes. It would also be in the Consensual direction because of the nature of the 10 pledges, when Sora touched Steph's breasts in Vol 1 he was only able to do it cuz she wanted it or did not mind it, it would be literally impossible otherwise. Also for your two examples, The slave wearing "Skimpy" clothes, Is this supposed to be played for fanservice? Look at Shield Hero or Death March, when They get their slaves the slaves are wearing "Skimpy" clothes but it is not played for fanservice. The other example, in Danmachi the Amazons do not wear much but it is also rarely played for fanservice. An example I came up with, Just because a girl is sexy doesn't mean it is forced she could just be sexy without fanservice scenes or moments.
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There is one aspect of fanservice I have never really thought about. Its the fetishistic aspect. For example I never once saw slaves ot master servant relationships in anime as fanservice or fetishy unless it was obviously the point. Though I just cant see how the slavery aspect of shield hero can be seen as fetishy, I can see how people would say Death March it is (especially with some of the things that happens in the series like the sweet syrup finger licking).
Also since my natural vs forced fanservice is not that well explained in my opinion. You can think of it like the difference between a left field twist that makes no sense vs foreshadowed plot point. Natural fanservice is "foreshadowed" by just us knowing the characters or the story/plot. For example a beach episode will mean swin wear like shorts and bikinis. A more specific example like in the monogatari series, the fanservice is very much influenced by the narrator and if the narrator sees any given thing in a fanservice way. In FUNAs average if you forced me to I could probably name some moments that can be seen as fanservice; the characters just feel so real and natural that it is very hard to pin-point anything that feels like it was "written" for fans. In Danmachi anytime Bell walks into a fanservice scene he goes from running away from it to apologising. Also the fanservice can be used to foreshadow like Hermes will get Bell into trouble. Fanservice in Food Wars is consistant and non-bias. The fanservice also plays into the main themes of Food Wars. I can go on but this is getting a bit to long for the point I want to make.
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I think i would be neutral annoyed, as long as it doesn’t take from the story i'm mostly okay but story based around ecchi tend to annoyed me , saved a few exception like Keijo or kill la kill in anime, monogatari or rakudai kishi no cavalry LN.
I don't think the (non)consensual axis is relevant, at least personaly i don't care as long at it doesn’t negativly affect the story.In place of that i would add a gained/not gained axis, because even if it's near useless for the story having some fan service after 5vol isn't the same as having the same in the first vol.
For exemple it's not an issue to have a bath scene in infinite dendrogram after 8 vol because we've come to know the characters, to like them,... so even if it's not really usefull for the story it's not the same as having a bath scene with a bunch of unknow characters in vol1. -
I'm not a fan of fanservice where it is there purely for the sake of fanservice. (So I guess I don't like forced according to that grid).
To me, fanservice is something I don't really need or want in the first place, but if it serves a purpose, I am okay with it.
(I know it sounds odd considering I don't mind slavery or even violence, but as I've said before, I care more about the story).
Winning isn't really that fun if you want a challenge... Making others win, on the other hand...
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@sinnoaria said in Let us Discuss Fanservice(ecchi):
I'm not a fan of fanservice where it is there purely for the sake of fanservice. (So I guess I don't like forced according to that grid).
To me, fanservice is something I don't really need or want in the first place, but if it serves a purpose, I am okay with it.
(I know it sounds odd considering I don't mind slavery or even violence, but as I've said before, I care more about the story).
What about something like To-Love-Ru or the like, where the whole purpose of the series existing is fan service?
The events are forced as hell logically, but in universe they've even got an explanation for them making them technically natural.
What annoys me is fan service inserted where it isn't needed (blanking on a good example off the top of my head but it happens all the time - serious storyline then suddenly some chick is naked in the shower for no plot relevant reason with shots (visual or described) framed around "plot" rather than just telling the story)
However if the story knows it is trash and embraces it (like most ecchi series that are intended to be blatant fan service) I'm ok with it, even if it isn't necessarily to my taste.
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also in my mind, the 'rule of funny' is a thing
To-Love-Ru eventually develops a plot but never takes itself too seriously, and the fan service is often hilarious.
I'm with you, fan service is a disservice if it impedes my ability to suspend my disbelief by being outside of a plausible plot-line, seems overly gratuitous, or is a subject matter that I personally find creepy
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@smashman42 said in Let us Discuss Fanservice(ecchi):
@sinnoaria said in Let us Discuss Fanservice(ecchi):
I'm not a fan of fanservice where it is there purely for the sake of fanservice. (So I guess I don't like forced according to that grid).
To me, fanservice is something I don't really need or want in the first place, but if it serves a purpose, I am okay with it.
(I know it sounds odd considering I don't mind slavery or even violence, but as I've said before, I care more about the story).
What about something like To-Love-Ru or the like, where the whole purpose of the series existing is fan service?
The events are forced as hell logically, but in universe they've even got an explanation for them making them technically natural.
What annoys me is fan service inserted where it isn't needed (blanking on a good example off the top of my head but it happens all the time - serious storyline then suddenly some chick is naked in the shower for no plot relevant reason with shots (visual or described) framed around "plot" rather than just telling the story)
However if the story knows it is trash and embraces it (like most ecchi series that are intended to be blatant fan service) I'm ok with it, even if it isn't necessarily to my taste.
I'm fine with that. It works with the story. I don't see that as 'forced' because it is basically the driving force behind the story in the first place. Like I said, if it serves a purpose, I am okay with it.
Like the random beach scene that has nothing to do with the rest of the anime or manga or even novel. (There are series that actually try to make it natural or even take advantage of it).
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I've never been in the right target audience for most fanservice as I'm a straight woman but I normally find it annoying but tolerable. Forced fanservice really aggravates me though! You expect a certain amount in ecchi/harem/romcom titles but it feels really out of place when something like Book Girl has it. The stripping scene in vol 1 was pointless, made me disengage with the story and I ended up not enjoying the book nearly as much as I thought I would.
Funnily enough I've read a fair amount of the more fanservicey JNC LNs though, since I do my best to read at least vol 1 of each series to give them a fair try (although I fell behind a bit last year...). Of the ones I've read, Mixed Bathing probably felt the most justified and natural in its setting - it didn't use fanservice as an excuse to stop progressing the larger plot and there were clear boundaries and consent which took it out of creepy territory.
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@raddevlin said in Let us Discuss Fanservice(ecchi):
it didn't use fanservice as an excuse to stop progressing the larger plot and there were clear boundaries and consent which took it out of creepy territory.
Yeah, that is certainly my favourite type of fanservice. An example is the cabin scene from Chivalry of a Failed Knight as 2 lovers talking about sex and in a "heated" situation makes sense with the fanservice. I really HATE the type of fanservice Index uses constantly as it is accidental and both side of the scene does not want it either. It would bother me less if say one party actively sought this kind of scenario whether a perverted MC trying to see a nude girl or the girl trying to seduce the MC. But even then I prefer when both sides are happy and consensual with the fanservice. I think mothers basment has a video on Ecchi and fanservice that explains it well.
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One thing that I notice about fanservice is the different kinds of fanservice and what kinds are more often used in certain genres. For example in Harem series, it is almost model like; the girls are meant to be looked at, to be sexy and as fetish as possible. Then you have the cute girl series with 3-5 core girls. The fanservice in these kind of series I find to be less obvious or we just do not see it as fanservice. In FUNAs Average, looking back there were fanservice moments but I never even clued in that it was fanservice. I think one reason for this is Average does not hide anything yet does not highlight anything either. Average can have a side character who is basically raising his dream girlfriend and I didn't really bat an eye. This is because it does this for everything like having 2 gold diggers and in the fanservice. Then are series where fanservice or sexuality is a core part of the series. There are some series where if you remove the fanservice it becomes a completely different series. These series are not shy with their fanservice and are usually creative with the fanservice or are consensual and natural with it.
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@drone205 It is a very Good Video and for extra win it uses the anime for How not to Summon a Demon Lord
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC6wit4Epeo@raddevlin Mixed Bathing is one of my favorites, and I agree probably one of the most naturally '"fanservicey" series here. One of the things that makes it work in my opinion, is that Touya's bathing fetish is deeper than the excuse to see girls naked but has to do with missing his little sister and feelings of safety and family.
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If characters are humiliated, objectified or forced into noncon situations without a REALLY good plot reason, male or female, I'm not going to read or watch. Just not interested.
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@errantknight said in Let us Discuss Fanservice(ecchi):
If characters are humiliated, objectified or forced into noncon situations without a REALLY good plot reason, male or female, I'm not going to read or watch. Just not interested.
what if a characters role is to be a stella? But in all seriousness I think that only really happens in fitesh stories (or 16R and 18R). There is undoubtedly many cases of the "accidental fanservice," but to me they are more annoying then anything else. Though if there is some sound logic and one or both people are to blame (kind of goes with the logic) and show a level of maturity then I have no problems. I don't have problems with one character having pervy thoughts about another character, as people do have them (also in so e cases it would almost be unnatural to not have a pervy thought cross even for just a moment). I assume you mean humiliated in a ecchi fanservice kind of way like force strip (and darker things) and only villains seem to really do that (though revenge fantasies do this too somtimes). In most cases in real life it is a matter of power where lust is only a secondary reason but it seems in fiction this is reversed where most cases is about lust and power is secondary. These can get really angry for all the wrong reasons (something like Berserk can get me really angry but for all the right reasons).
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I agree that such things CAN be used for reasons other than fan service and be plot oriented, yeah. Still not gonna read them out of personal preference. A lot of times I find it lazy, like the shorthand of killing a family pet to demonstrate villainy. Villains are so much more interesting when they're less obvious, heh. Good guys, too, but that's beside the current point....
Characters having normal human impulses, presented in a way that isn't totally creepy...I don't really consider that fanservice. Still, my personal pet peeve is helium balloon yoyo breasts.
