Slavery in LN
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@kurosov said in Slavery in LN:
@jon-mitchell said in Slavery in LN:
I dislike it because slavery embodies the worst in human society, and an author who uses it as a trope, a shortcut, trivializes it.
An author who does this is being lazy, and that takes away from my enjoyment of the story. I've gone into more detail in the fora for some of the series that have thisI strongly dissagree.
Slavery is a fact of human cultural development to the point where an author would need a specific cultural explanation for it having never occurred. It's the most basic form of an oppressive class system that shouldn't be offhandedly ignored in many cases.
Even as a form of background worldbuilding it's no more lazy than including any other class divides in a fictional society.
What it sounds like is you find slavery in particular an uncomfortable subject you'd rather not be presented in a story to keep you from feeling uncomfortable.
did you read all of my comment? right after the part you cut/paste (I added some emphasis):
- "Slavery in a story, as a tragic aspect of a society, or an evil to be conquered, can add to worldbuilding. It isn't off limits (at least to me) - I object to it being taken lightly."
there are a bunch of lazy tropes that maybe I don't like, and I try not to judge- but I find that I enjoy a story more when I can have empathy for the characters. So (for example) when a isekai MC is nonchalant about slavery, or murder, or rape, or exploitation- I find it more difficult to empathize - in that same vein, I find I enjoy a story less when the author is lazy in their worldbuilding. If slavery exists in their setting, why? It might be 'just the way things are' or a punishment for criminals (like Carla's in Realist Hero), or a signal that the antagonist is corrupt, or whatever- but if used as a crutch in storytelling - I find it disconcerting. Your mileage may vary
I read banned books
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@korppi Yes, I find that a problem too. Sheild Hero at least had a reason to buy a slave and he treated her very well, unlike the slaver who was just going to let her die, which I found strange. In Demon Lord, the slaver argued that her slaves came to her willingly, to get out of debt, and she made sure to only sell to people she knew would not abuse them.
There are some stories though that I hate and will not buy again, Her Majesty's Swarm and Death March being an example. The stories made me ill and angry. I read Unemployed Reincarnate despite not likening the MC very much because some of the supporting characters are interesting. -
@jon-mitchell I agree. These LNs take the evil of slavery, especially CHILD and sex slavery, way too lightly and even try to justify it, and the MCs lack of moral outrage make me like them less then I would otherwise.
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@folker46 said in Slavery in LN:
These are not powerless people; they are usually the OP MC of a story and yet they feel nothing about what they see.
The problem there is you find yourself advocating a tyranny of violence. Relying on individual power to push a massive societal shift in a culture you don't have a thorough understanding of will never work. This is how you get concentration camps and genocides, which are no better at all.
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@folker46 said in Slavery in LN:
@jon-mitchell I agree. These LNs take the evil of slavery, especially CHILD and sex slavery, way too lightly and even try to justify it, and the MCs lack of moral outrage make me like them less then I would otherwise.
How NOT to Summon a Demon Lord, turns this on its ear. The opening scene has the girls trying to summon a demon lord, and enslave him (with a kiss) only for their plan to backfire, and they become his slaves - it's comedic, it's absurd, and I loved it. The institution of slavery, and the situation the girls find themselves in is not trivialized, nor was it used as lazy worldbuilding. (society looks down on the MC, as a pervert(?) for enslaving girls, and the MC tries to figure out how to undo the slave-making spell, later he essentially nullifies it) Also, we get to see that taking away someone's agency is treated as evil (Sheera's brother)
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@folker46 said in Slavery in LN:
My main problem with these types of stories is the idea of a person from a modern culture, when confronted with even brutal slavery, just shrugging their shoulders and not being outraged in any way. I find the idea baffling. These are not powerless people; they are usually the OP MC of a story and yet they feel nothing about what they see.
It's may not be as baffling as you think. Not Japan, but I've seen news cases in North America where fights and violence have broken out on the street in front of a whole crowd of people. Does anyone think to call 911? Nope, but a lot of them are more than happy to record the whole thing and upload it to social media.
If you follow that attitude into an LN, it makes some sense that people might be disgusted at the idea (and typically it's indicated as such) but they're not willing to get involved in trying to change anything.
There's also the problem that just using force to enact change doesn't generally work unless you're planning to stay in for the long haul. Look how many countries had their dictators toppled in the name of bringing in democracy just to have a new dictator take power the moment the liberating forces leave the country.
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@jpwong said in Slavery in LN:
There's also the problem that just using force to enact change doesn't generally work unless you're planning to stay in for the long haul. Look how many countries had their dictators toppled in the name of bringing in democracy just to have a new dictator take power the moment the liberating forces leave the country.
"Nation building" has failed for the US pretty much worldwide, and that's for a country using modern weapons, hundreds of thousands of soldiers, and trillions of dollars.
Trying to change a society from the outside using force is rarely going to work, or at best will work only as long as an iron-fisted dictator can maintain control throughout a nation.
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@kurosov I refuse to fall into the hole of social relativism, not all cultures are equal, some are superior to others. I don't care what the locals think, evil is evil and should be crushed. I know that's the argument made by Islamic extremist; they see our culture as evil so anything they do to us is good. Sadly, that is one of the reasons humans fight wars, someone's culture so offends you that you hate it and are willing to fight to change it. But many evil cultures got what was coming to them because "good" people could NOT sit and allow evil to be done. The culture of the Aztecs was evil, and the people of that culture saw nothing wrong with it, do you think it should still exist? Or was it a good thing the Spanish and local tribes destroyed it.
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@harmlessdave Funny, say that to the Japanese and Germans about how nation building failed. To change a society, you have to be willing to stay until the changes stick, we still occupy Germany and Japan, though to a very minor amount. Bush failed in Iraq because he didn't want to stay and turned the government over to a corrupt and incompetent bunch of conmen, Afghanistan had too much inference coming from outside, from Pakistan and Iran, for any real changes to become the norm.
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@jpwong Antifa and BLM violence is a whole new bunch of eggs and is funded by America hating Marxist.
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Hello,
It looks like we are straying further and further away from the initial topic at hand...
While, fully understanding that this particular topic will be rife with real world examples, and will reference similar themed topics, it seems we have crossed the line into a real world political talk.
Having an open discussion on this can be cathartic, but again, we have passed that point
I will be locking this topic down, and If anyone wishes to discuss modern day politics, I will point you to Facebook, Twitter, and Reddit.
Thank you,
Rahul Balaggan
J-Novel Club Forum Moderator -
Referenced by
Rahul Balaggan
