Over-localization
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@timaaahh I totally agree with you. Nyantaro is untranslated and becomes "just some strange Japanese name" while Garfield was an overlocalization. Funny, if you know who a Garfield is, but Garfield isn't that well known in Japan, so why would Touya, clearly a Japanese man, use that reference. "Mr. Mittens" is a good middle ground.
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@paul-nebeling said in Over-localization:
Garfield isn't that well known in Japan
Is it actually (not a rhetoric question, I really don't know). Afaik they aired the complete Garfield and Friends series over there, and Genda, Garfield's seiyuu, quite prolific.
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@jaquobus Yea it aired in Japan. (https://youtu.be/gJhCoDE2vvk) I'm sure most Japanese know who/what Garfield is, but how deep their knowledge goes is unknown to me.
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@paul-nebeling said in Over-localization:
but Garfield isn't that well known in Japan, so why would Touya, clearly a Japanese man, use that reference.
Be careful with this argument. You're just a single logical step away from "Touya is Japanese, so why would he be speaking in English!"
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@myskaros I don't think those arguments are remotely related. He's not speaking in English. He's speaking in Japanese, we're merely reading it as English. There's a difference, when it comes to dialogue, as to what the text is being rendered as, and what it's representing. Unless that comment was sarcasm...
Garfield didn't jive with the context for me, it stuck out as being... weird.
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@flarecde My point is that the argument is a slippery slope. "He's Japanese, so he shouldn't know X." "He's Japanese, so he should/would be saying Y." The basic counterargument would be "well, why are you OK with A but not B." If you compare the original text with the translation, there are going to be a lot of cases where what was translated differs greatly from the original form of the Japanese - why is this specific case special?
Your framework makes the argument even worse, honestly. "He's actually speaking Japanese, but we just read the translation of it"? Steiner's translation style is no secret, so why haven't there been droves of complaints every time anything is localized instead of directly translated? What makes Garfield the straw that broke the camel's back?
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@myskaros Sorry, I misunderstood the argument. I thought you were implying people would question why Touya's dialogue isn't literally in Japanese.
I don't see an issue with asking "why A and not B." It's a valid question from the purist point of view, and anyone making the argument should have an answer.
~ flarecde
Reality is nothing; Perception is everything. -
It's not a slippery slope, there's no justification for Touya suddenly thinking and behaving like a typical american.
At the same time forgetting about balance and thinking that changing a character any way you want is okay just to make things more familiar or because you personally think it's funny is exactly what a slippery slope is, Garfield is simply the most glaring example which could be noticed even by those who don't know japanese and have never read the original.
Not to mention that changing a deliberately typical impersonal name to a straightforward famous reference is a horrible decision in itself.
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At this point Garfield-gate is a mute point, the translator has addressed it in great depth, and Sam has said that it would be changed for the ebook release and it has.
Let's move on from the that one specific localization point, this topic is about over-localization in general, there should be plenty of other localization points to discuss.
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@flarecde said in Over-localization:
I don't see an issue with asking "why A and not B." It's a valid question from the purist point of view, and anyone making the argument should have an answer.
That's not what's happening though, they're saying "I'm outraged about A, because I heard about it from someone else, but I don't care about B since it never came to my attention." Specifically in reference to the "he's Japanese therefore" argument.
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@farmerdad there is something called over-translation or over-localization, and honestly people hate it. also to be honest one thing that makes fan-translation still more popular than licensed material with the audience is because sometimes "professionally" hired translator just don't have the sense to keep the over localization at bay.
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@shyevsa said in Secret Organization Vol. 1 Discussion!:
there is something called over-translation or over-localization, and honestly people hate it.
The problem is that everyone has a different line. What is considered "over-translation" to you might not be to someone else, or you might point to a certain aspect and say "over-translation!" while someone else might instead point to a different aspect and say "under-translation!"
Basically, you can't please everyone. The fact that this book is selling so well shows that it at least pleases enough people to be financially successful, regardless of the localized end product. It's perfectly fine to not like the style - not every book is for every person - but I somehow doubt that the "over-localization" is responsible for a significant amount of sales or lost sales.
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@myskaros I am generalizing thing tho. so its not about this particular title. and there is people that hate the translation but still willing to support.
I am one of those that like to stick to the original as much as possible, and just filling the blank myself if I find something that I don't feel right. because in the end I read it for myself.end point, yeah I agree that you can't please everyone.
at least sometimes j-novel translator do reach to reader for advice not like the "big" name "professional" that just bulldoze thing. -
I'd rather something be over-localized than under-localized. I don't understand Japanese, so translators that like to leave in tons of Japanese terms/phrases/quirks in their texts are just obnoxious and ruin the flow. This is far more of a problem in fan translations than professional translations.
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Imo, underlocalization is much better than overlocalization. I read japanese light novels to read japanese light novels, not some american young adult book with american toilet jokes collection (Hi, Devil is a Part-timer!). And there are wonderful inventions to help with unknown terms: footnotes and google.
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@wellwisher said in Over-localization:
I read japanese light novels to read japanese light novels
Then learn Japanese.
A book that's not set in Japan should not come with a secret requirement to be familiar with Japanese jokes and sentence structure, nor should a reader have to Google things constantly. Light novels are also not research papers; breaking someone's reading flow because they have to go check a footnote in order to understand what was just said is not a good practice.
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@myskaros Err, Secret Organisation (where this post was initially written) is set in Japan.
Let's clarify first that I'm not arguing about leaving things as they are in japanese. I even agree that speech quirks are garbage and need to be purged. Heck, even removal of honourifics is sometimes for the better.
I am telling thatif we leave the "sweet spot" (and yes, I know said spot is different for everyone), I'd prefer translation to be on a side without unnecessary changes.
We don't mirror manga anymore, despite it being quite confusing for new people.
Footnotes are not specific to research papers, lots and lots of fiction books have it.Then learn Japanese.
Good idea. JP books are cheaper, too.
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@wellwisher said in Over-localization:
(where this post was initially written)
The Secret Org topic was drifting further from being about Secret Org and more just general talk so I moved several comments, that did not relate directly to Secret Org
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@wellwisher said in Over-localization:
I am telling thatif we leave the "sweet spot" (and yes, I know said spot is different for everyone), I'd prefer translation to be on a side without unnecessary changes.
I can agree with this.
